15
   

We're from the government and we're here to help....

 
 
spendius
 
  3  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 03:01 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
I think that we confuse literate with intelligent.


That's for sure boomie.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 03:09 pm
@boomerang,
education is only partly about fostering intelligence, it is about showing how to learn, showing the important ideas, and showing what makes "the good life". learning lit is the only way you will know how all those who have come before have answered the question other than religion. demanding that each person reinvent the wheel for themselves seriously hobbles civilization.

then there is the whole problem that one does not fully grasp an idea until they can explain it.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 03:12 pm
@firefly,
To use a Jane Austen trick if I may.

Quote:
Where did I make excuses for my life accomplishments, or my ranking in the "better off brigade", because of my early school experiences? Where did I even complain about such things because of where I wound up in life?

All I said was that I was bored in elementary school through the 4th grade.--and I was. But things, thankfully, improved after that, because I did skip a grade, and later, in high school, I did have access to advanced classes. All of that helped me to develop my potential. And I can understand what it must be like for those students who just can't 'connect' to school, for whatever reason, and I can empathize with them.


She fetched breath, and went on again.

Quote:
I'm more than happy with what I've achieved and accomplished in life, which is definitely above average, and that includes my level of educational attainment. I've been a very privileged person in many ways, and I'm very grateful for that. I've had the advantage of being able to do just about anything I wanted to do. I wish everyone had such opportunities. And that's why I value a good education, it helps to make other things in life possible. I want that for all children.

I feel no need to make excuses, of any kind, for myself. And I'm not making any. I've done quite well, despite having been bored in my first 5 years of school.


Julien Sorel got fast tracked.

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 03:15 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
I think that dealing with frustration and boredom and daydreaming and kids that aren't just like you is integral to growing up.

I'll wager that everyone almost everyone who uses A2K was a pretty literate kid. We all choose to communicate in a text based format after all. This is a self selected community cut off from the population at large.

I think that we confuse literate with intelligent.


I can only speak for myself. As a child, I was both literate and very intelligent, and, as an adult, I am still both literate and very intelligent. Unlike BillRM, I do not feel any need to announce my I.Q. level or score, or to detail my attainments. My actual level of functioning has always been consistent with my measured level of intelligence. I also think that intelligence is largely innate, and that it is distributed in the population along a bell curve--and most people fall in the middle.

I agree with you that you need a certain level of verbal fluency, particularly in written language, to be able to effectively communicate on forums like A2K, where we communicate by text. But, I'd hardly assume that most A2Kers were "pretty literate kids". I'd just guess they weren't mostly illiterate kids. And just as there is a range of verbal ability revealed in posts here, there is also considerable variability in cognitive and intellectual functions revealed in posts--in terms of the ability to think abstractly, the ability to organize thoughts, or integrate information, or to comprehend certain things, or to discriminate finely rather than over-generalize, and even in the ability to remember what was previously posted in a thread. I think this community contains a fairly wide range of the general population. It may be self-selected in terms of interests, but I don't see it as differing from the general population in terms of literacy or intelligence.
Quote:
I think that dealing with frustration and boredom and daydreaming and kids that aren't just like you is integral to growing up

Of course it is. And it goes on in a wide range of situations on a daily basis.

The problem is when too much of that frustration and boredom goes on within a child because of what he's being subjected to, in his/her classroom, day after day, for too much of each day. And when the child is forced to be there, that child's options for dealing with prolonged, rather continuous, frustration and boredom, in the classroom, become somewhat limited, and often they find negative means of expression. It really is up to to the adults, the educators, to try to modify that classroom experience for such a child, in order to facilitate, or maximize, the child's engagement and ability to learn. And there are better and worse ways of doing that.

spendius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 03:27 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Unlike BillRM, I do not feel any need to announce my I.Q. level or score, or to detail my attainments.


I should think not after you laid it on with a trowel in the previous sentence.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 03:37 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Unlike BillRM, I do not feel any need to announce my I.Q. level or score, or to detail my attainments I was both literate and very intelligent, and, as an adult, I am still both literate and very intelligent.


LOL somehow I am sure you never have an asshole counselor tell your father that the reason you was getting As in all the advances courses you were taking is that you are an overachiever and that you was not nearly as bright at you though you happen to be. My IQ test results posting was in relationship to this counselor comments concerning how bright or not bright I happen to had been in his opinion.


Yes in any case I can see how you never claim any intellectual standings and let your body of postings here speak for themselves .......

Hmm are you perhaps trying to made fun of yourself Firefly by such a contradiction statement? ........... Drunk


firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 03:39 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I should think not after you laid it on with a trowel in the previous sentence.

No, and I gave no specifics, because I'm not trying to impress anyone. I was directly responding to what you said, or erroneously inferred, about me when you said this, and implied I was making excuses for myself, and my later lot in life, based on my early school experiences...
Quote:
Being bored in school is obviously not a unique experience and not suitable as an excuse for why you haven't risen, in the better off brigade, further than you seem to think you deserve to have done,
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 03:44 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I should think not after you laid it on with a trowel in the previous sentence.


I was rolling of the floor in reading her posting blowing her own intellectual horn and then taking me to task at the same time for posting my IQ score in relationship to a school counselor opinion of my intelligent.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 03:56 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

Yes in any case I can see how you never claim any intellectual standings and let your body of postings here speak for themselves .......

The body of my postings do speak for themselves, both in terms of my literacy and my intelligence.

And so do yours...Rolling Eyes

And, as I've said before, you're not as bright as you think you are.

I also find it quite sad that you're still gnawing a bone about what an "asshole counselor" said to your father five decades ago. If being called an "overachiever" was the worst thing that was said about you, you're lucky.

That you feel you have to cite your I.Q. score now, to continue to defend your indignity, about being called an "overachiever" way back then, is very sad. It also ignores the other things you've said about your academic accomplishments in school. If you were in the Superior range of intelligence, as judged by an I.Q. score of 127, why were you getting all those B's and C's in your coursework? What was interfering with the expression of your intelligence in your schoolwork?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 03:58 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
No, and I gave no specifics, because I'm not trying to impress anyone.


Lol Firefly statement I am bright I am damn bright but as I am not giving a number on that brightness so it is not the same as someone who posted his IQ score in relationship to a claimed by a so call educational expert expressing an opinion of his lack of intellect!

I think your contradiction here and the very weak attempts to defend it say one hell of a lot not about your intellect but the type of person you happen to be.

Of course anyone who had read even a small percent of your postings are aware of some "slight" personality faults of your that you seems not to be aware of even if the rest of us are very aware of them.

In this case, the lack of self awareness on your parts had resulted in a very funny posting.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 04:02 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

I was rolling of the floor in reading her posting blowing her own intellectual horn

Exactly what did I say about my intelligence or life accomplishments, that was specific? Or anywhere near as specific as citing my I.Q. score?

What do you actually know about me, in terms of details, that you didn't know about me before I made that post--what did I reveal that you didn't know?

I don't have to bother telling anyone how bright I am, I know it comes through in my posts, just as it comes through in real life when people meet me. It's also something I don't take credit for, any more than I'm responsible for my height or eye color--I consider it just another innate attribute.

And I was specifically responding to something spendius said about me--and inaccurately inferred about my earlier comments in a post.

0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 04:07 pm
@firefly,
You Firefly wish to grant the power to limit the future of children to such counselors and other such "experts" and given my battle that I needed to fight at a young age to maintain my future career path I do indeed have an emotional reaction to such plans to pigeon hole children and to hell with those who do not fit into any neat nick.

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 04:31 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
You Firefly wish to grant the power to limit the future of children to such counselors and other such "experts" and given my battle that I needed to fight at a young age to maintain my future career path I do indeed have an emotional reaction to such plans to pigeon hole children and to hell with those who do not fit into any neat nick.

Look, you were a B and C level student who wanted to go into certain advanced classes--that counselor wasn't completely off the wall. And you got into the classes, so you weren't deprived of anything. And this all happened at least 50 years ago.

If you put C level high school students into advanced classes, as a general rule, you're defeating the purpose of having those advanced level high school classes. I don't think that has to do with 'pigeon-holing' students--it's more about addressing the academic needs of some high school students, particularly those with the higher grades and demonstrated ability to do such advanced work in some areas, so they don't have to sit in a regular classroom where the instructional level is pitched to the 'middle'.

And, had you not gotten into those classes, how would your "future career path" have been affected? You went past high school, or so you say, wouldn't you have done that otherwise?

How come your ostensibly Superior I.Q. level wasn't being expressed in your over-all grades? What interfered? Was it something the school could have, or should have, addressed?

You want us to judge high school students on their I.Q. scores, and not on their previous grades and academic achievements, when it comes to advanced class high school placements?

spendius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 05:08 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Hmm are you perhaps trying to made fun of yourself Firefly by such a contradiction statement? .


I entertained the suspicion that ff is taking the piss. I have thought the same about Om Sig David a good few times.

My Jane Austen compliment perhaps did pass ff by.

Quote:
You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but know you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And say do you want to make a deal?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 05:10 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
What was interfering with the expression of your intelligence in your schoolwork?


Girls are the most likely candidates.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 03:23 am
@firefly,
Quote:
And you got into the classes, so you weren't deprived of anything. And this all happened at least 50 years ago.


An how many kids who was not as determine as I happen to had been had their future harm due to this counselor during his career and others like him?

An what does it matter how long in the past it happen to had been when some elements of the educational system now wish once more start to pigeonholing children at a young age?

Quote:
And, had you not gotten into those classes, how would your "future career path" have been affected? You went past high school, or so you say, wouldn't you have done that otherwise?


Yes going into an engineering program without the six/seven or so classes of high school advance math and science classes would not had done any harm at all to me!!!!!!!!!!

Math is the language of engineering far more then English happen to be and good luck to anyone going into such a college program without the background to be able to work with say vectors and matrix algebra during the first year.

Quote:
You want us to judge high school students on their I.Q. scores, and not on their previous grades and academic achievements, when it comes to advanced class high school placements?


No it just annoy the hell out of me that even after I had proven without question that I could more then handle all the advance classes in math and science that the high school had to offer the placement/guidance people was still making excuses over their attempts to keep me out of such a program track by claiming to my father of all people that my IQ was lacking and I was just an overachiever.

At that time no testing had been done to determine my IQ and only later did I learn that I was in fact 2 SD above the norm. By the way that is the average IQ score repeat the average score for engineering students so in that content it was a normal score to have given my career goals.

Quote:
How come your ostensibly Superior I.Q. level wasn't being expressed in your over-all grades?


In fact the likely answer to why my grades did not reflect my basic IQ in all areas is likely to be similar to Mr Edison and every other boy who happen to had been interested in the technology of his day.

I were far more interested in such books as Asimov books on science and technology and the radio ham manual and working in my folk basement on tube sets and other projects to care to place the efforts needed to get As in areas of no interest to myself.

Unlike the school honor kids that I deal with in the advance classes my life did not revolve around my class standing and my GPA.

Lord did that group of students play the system to try to beat out each other in class standing and I found the battle between two young ladies to be the class valedictorian highly amusing.

Strangely other then the drive for grades I did not see anyone in that group having a real passion for the course subjects that I share with them.



0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 03:33 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Girls are the most likely candidates.


Sadly girls was at that time no higher on my interest level then school subjects that did not impact my areas of interests.

An college was far worst as unlike now where half of the engineering students are female there was one repeat one female in the engineering program and you would had needed a flame thrower to get near her.

Nor did an average load of 21 credit hours of such courses as Maxwell field equations leave a lot of time to go to parties looking for hook ups.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 03:56 am
As I said before my IQ of 127 is right at the average IQ for electrical engineers with the average given by the below table of 126.

With teachers and others in the education field given by this table at 109.


Quote:


http://www.electronicproducts.com/News/Engineer_vs_engineer_Who_has_the_higher_IQ.aspx

Average IQ

Profession

130

Physics

129

Mathematics

128.5

Computer Science

128

Economics

127.5

Chemical engineering

127

Material Science

126

Electrical Engineering

125.5

Mechanical Engineering

125

Philosophy

124

Chemistry

123

Earth Sciences

122

Industrial Engineering

122

Civil Engineering

121.5

Biology

120.1

English/Literature

120

Religion/Theology

119.8

Political Science

119.7

History

118

Art History

117.7

Anthropology

116.5

Architecture

116

Business

115

Sociology

114

Psychology

114

Medicine

112

Communication

109

Education

106

Public Administration
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 09:23 am
Quote:
The New York Times
June 10, 2013
Ethnicity, Class and Suicide Lead a Hamptons School to Reach Out

By JIM RUTENBERG

EAST HAMPTON, N.Y. — As he walked the East Hampton High School campus on the last day of classes last week, Adam S. Fine seemed to be one satisfied principal. Graduating seniors were moving on to colleges including Brown and Cornell Universities; class-cutting was down; and Newsweek had ranked the school among the 2,000 best public schools in the nation, all to be expected in a ZIP code synonymous with success.

But, asked to reflect on the year that was, he sighed and moved his hand up and down, suggesting a roller coaster. “Resiliency,” he said. “That’s my theme word for graduation.”

This has been a year like none other for East Hampton High, which faced an uncomfortable ethnic integration problem that had been festering in the background for years but was thrust to the foreground by a tragedy at the opening of the school year.

A 16-year-old junior from Ecuador, David Hernandez, hanged himself just a few days after homecoming in September; it was the second student suicide in three years. Two months later, a student who was about to transfer to the school committed suicide. Three suicides in three years in a school community of about 900 students is far above the regional average. And all of the students who killed themselves were Hispanic.

The suicides, taken together, brought to the surface a division between the relatively small and economically comfortable group of Anglo-Saxons for whom the school was founded and newer, poorer Hispanic residents, whose numbers have been rising rapidly. And they made the school district address the problem directly.

The divide, administrators found, was adding to a sense of alienation among some of the more vulnerable immigrant students, many of whom had moved to East Hampton years after their parents had arrived, having to readjust to their mothers and fathers at the same time as they entered a new school, with a new language, in a place that is rarefied even by the standards of the average American student.

“What I said as the building leader and person responsible for everything was, ‘Something’s going on here,’ ” Mr. Fine said in a recent interview. “ ‘We need to take a real hard look.’ ”

The principal, the grieving mother of one of the suicide victims, a local newspaper and a recent graduate of the school who had herself experienced this sense of alienation — and has now returned to help others — all played significant roles in efforts to gain some control of the situation. It is a prime example of how this town of more than 21,000 residents — some of them famous, some of them from families who have been here for generations, and some of them just here in the summer — has sought to deal with huge demographic changes that have come with being a beacon of American attainment.

The Hispanic portion of East Hampton Township’s population nearly doubled between 2000 and 2010, according to census figures, to 26.4 percent from 14.8 percent; it was 5 percent in 1990. Hispanics made up 41 percent of the East Hampton Union Free School District’s student population in 2012, up from 21.7 percent 10 years earlier and 5 percent 10 years before that, according to State Education Department figures.

The district has tried to keep up, with a robust program in English as a second language, three Spanish-speaking social workers and, in the high school, two Spanish-speaking secretaries. Some lessons have been learned by trial and error. For instance, the English-as-a-second language classrooms were once together in a cluster, which one parent of a former student said had been called “Little Mexico” by some; now the classrooms are throughout the building.

“It’s a dramatic demographic change,” said Richard J. Burns, superintendent of the East Hampton school district. “It takes a while; getting your arms around it is difficult.”

But in the months since the most recent suicides, the very life of the school has been altered in ways large and small, in a concerted effort to bring about change more quickly.

And much it had to do with the hiring of someone uniquely qualified to bridge the gap between the school and the parents of its Hispanic students — Ana Núñez, 23, who had endured the travails of being an Ecuadorean student at East Hampton High but who had overcome them, won a scholarship to Columbia University and graduated with a degree in economics and political science.

She was hired by the district a few weeks after David Hernandez’s suicide, which had made it clear that the district needed a liaison who could directly address the rifts between the Spanish-speaking community and the English-speaking school district.

David, 16, had moved to East Hampton from Ecuador three years earlier, to live with his mother, who had left Ecuador for America when he was a toddler. And while it is almost impossible to divine with any certainty the motives in suicides, David was questioning his sexuality, family friends and officials with knowledge of his case said. There were allegations of bullying from fellow Hispanic students, and evidence of previous attempts to kill himself.

His mother, Carmita Barros, gathered with fellow Hispanic parents after the suicide and complained to the local newspaper, The East Hampton Star, that his case had been ignored because he was Hispanic; the school vigorously denied the charge. But the parents also complained that as a group they felt distanced from the school in general.

If that was news to the school district, it was not news to Ms. Núñez, who had been in town around the time of the suicides, staying with her mother — who works at a hotel in Napeague, the narrow stretch of beach between Amagansett and Montauk — as she considered her next move, possibly law school. She had shared her own family’s experience during a visit that fall with a former teacher, Patricia Hope, who was on the school board and had reached out for Ms. Núñez’s reaction.

Ms. Núñez described an “issue that was deeper and broader than I had ever given thought to,” Ms. Hope said. She introduced Ms. Núñez to district officials, who hired her as their community liaison in December.

At the first meeting she called with Hispanic parents, only 18 people showed up. She extracted a promise from them that they would help her build attendance for another one a month later.

At that meeting, in February, about 250 people showed up. As the dialogue began, the school began learning of problems it had not known existed.

Many parents, for example, could not understand the report cards their children brought home because the school used a grading system different from the ones used in their home countries. “In Ecuador, they grade your work from 1 to 20, with 20 being the highest,” Ms. Núñez said. “So, here, if a kid’s doing 60, it seems like, ‘60? That sounds great!’ No, it sounds like you’re failing.”

In one case, the mother of a Hispanic student knew that her daughter was on the high honor roll, “but she never really knew what that meant,” said Robert Tymann, the assistant superintendent, who has worked closely with Ms. Núñez. When the mother was told what it meant, he said, “she started crying.”

It also came as news to the school that it was sending cultural miscues. South American parents were frequently pulling their children out of school in the winter for visits to their home countries. Frustrated teachers would send homework with them, but, Ms. Núñez said, that left the impression with parents that the absences were permissible. Schools in Ecuador, she said, would never be so lax. A committee was formed to address absenteeism.

One mother from Mexico, Adriana Gonzalez, who has a ninth grader in the school, said her son dissuaded her from attending school meetings, telling her they were not important. And when she did go, she said in Spanish, “I didn’t understand anything.”

After being drawn in by Ms. Núñez, she said, she has begun showing up at more meetings, and “loosened my tongue.” She has begun complaining that the school should institute drug testing, something many of the American parents abhor as an invasion of privacy.

Until now, she said, “who would ask a Latino parent her opinion, or cared?” She joked, “Now they want to listen, but maybe later they’re going to say ‘Stop it.’ ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/nyregion/in-hamptons-ethnicity-class-and-suicide-lead-school-to-reach-out.html?hpw&_r=0
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 09:51 am
@firefly,
Out reaching to parents is always a good idea however it impact on suicide rates of young teenagers under stress for being teenagers and in a foreign culture is doubtful to me.

An the fact that suicides will occur during the stress full teenage years and more so if the stress is increase by needing to deal with a new culture and language have what to do with survey forms or force academic tracking of students?

I also seems something about drug testings in that story and it have always greatly amused me that the courts had allow such random testings not of the whole school population but only of those students who are involved in extra school activities such as sports or clubs, the very students you would assume are at far lesser risk then the students who are non-joiners.

Thankfully my education was before such silliness so I never needed to decided if being in the after school chess club or the electronic club would be worth enduring the insult of peeing in front of someone into a bottle every now and then.



 

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