15
   

We're from the government and we're here to help....

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 01:53 pm
@firefly,
It's about time too ff. You have elites in the economy for those with ability and who put in effort.

It sends out a better message and prepares people for what they are going to get for their next 70 years so they won't be surprised when they get it sufficiently to keep insistently denying it and kicking against it.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 05:21 pm
@firefly,
I'll have to read that, but I don't read nyt anymore (after something like 40 years, including paper subscribing in Los Angeles.)

Not having read it, I'm not ready to bite, yet.

Would you mind clipping the gist of it?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 07:47 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Would you mind clipping the gist of it?

holding the smart kids back to keep pace with the dumb kids is dumb. true, but not relevant to this thread.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 08:56 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
strive to find the best way to instruct their students. I thought you might be interested in it...........Grouping Students by Ability Regains Favor in Classroom


Knowing how unhappy at the time some of the school stuff happen to had been to have an unrounded C/B student putting to shame the approved group of bright students in advance math and science courses I can just see myself being blocked from taking such courses under such a system and to hell with my abilities in those subjects to be in the top of the class.

Another means of pounding the students to fit a mold even it they do not naturally do so and by so doing limit their future.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 08:59 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
holding the smart kids back to keep pace with the dumb kids is dumb. true, but not relevant to this thread.


The problem is who get to decide who happen to be the smart kids and who are the dumb kids Hawkeye.

Who get to take the advance courses and who get the better teachers.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 09:02 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
holding the smart kids back to keep pace with the dumb kids is dumb. true, but not relevant to this thread.


The problem is who get to decide who happen to be the smart kids and who are the dumb kids Hawkeye.

Who get to take the advance courses and who get the better teachers.

that is what scoring their work is supposed to accomplish, and does when done correctly. there is no problem here except that sooner rather than later some proud parent is going to get told that their bundle of sunshine is stupid.
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 09:17 pm
@firefly,
I'm looking forward to reading this. It will most likely be tomorrow before I get time.

I will say that I am mostly against the idea of grouping by "ability" or "type" as I think it leaves people unprepared for what they will encounter in the world.

I don't think schools are very good at judging ability.

I'll read it and see if I'm persuaded....
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 09:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
the is what scoring their work is supposed to accomplish, and does when done correctly. there is no problem here except that sooner rather than later some proud parent is going to be told that their bundle of sunshine is stupid.


The word is supposed to accomplish Hawkeye as I said I can still remember the resistance I ran into when I as a lowly B student sign up for all the advance math and science courses the school had to offer and when the results happen to be that I received As and was normally at the top or the second from the top in all those subjects the judgment and the label used in connection to myself was that I was an overachiever.

Schools do not deal well with students that have narrow areas of interests and abilities and even passions.

Quote:
proud parent is going to be told that their bundle of sunshine is stupid
.

Well the school counselor could not get away with telling my proud father that I was stupid given all the As in the advance courses I was taking but he did tell my father that I was not as bright as I thought I was and that I was an overachiever.

Of course my IQ tests always peg me at 127 to 128 but the school system was determine to label me as a middle ranking student so how dare I show the abilities I did and harm their world picture.

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overachievement

Overachievers are individuals who "perform better or achieve more success than expected." [1] The implicit presumption is that the "overachiever" is achieving superior results through excessive effort. In a teaching context, an "overachiever" is an educational label applied to students, who perform better than their peers when normalized for the instructor's perceptions of background, intelligence or talent. In the workplace context, individuals who are deemed to be overachievers are those with the drive to complete tasks above and beyond expectations and who set very high career goals for themselves.


firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 10:00 pm
@BillRM,
That article is about elementary schools, BillRM, did you even bother to read it?

On a high school level they still have advanced classes for students who have already displayed aptitude in certain areas--as you claim you had in math and science. What's wrong with that? Would you rather have been excluded from those advanced classes?

You may well have been a "middle ranking student" in other subject areas. But they let you advance at a faster pace in the subjects you could excel at. I fail to see what's wrong with that.

You're still not as smart as you think you are. Amazing that those things don't change after all these years.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 10:15 pm
@BillRM,
Where was this where your IQ was measured? If you were given regular IQ tests then it's likely that your results were skewed due to the practice effect.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 10:50 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
That article is about elementary schools, BillRM, did you even bother to read it?


So the label of who that student is and his or her abilities will be set in concrete by the time he or she reach high school.

I just can see some child with an interest in some narrow area trying to get into an advance program after the system had label him as an average or below average student for six or seven years!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
You may well have been a "middle ranking student" in other subject areas. But they let you advance at a faster pace in the subjects you could excel at. I fail to see what's wrong with that.


They did not let me they pressure me not to sign up for those courses and if there had been a program in place that would have given them the ability to just denial me those courses there is no question in my mind they would had done so. Hell I was talked to by at least two counselors at some length over the wisdom of not taking such courses.

Then instead of being happy that they was wrong in so doing they attempts to downgrade my preformances in those areas by labeling me an overachiever as they could not had been so wrong about me and it must be my "fault" in some manner that their judgment was incorrect.

Now the reason I got into those courses was that even at that age my personalty was very bullheaded and I did not give a **** about the pressure being apply for not taking the courses I wish to take but how many children are going to have that level of determination to fight the system instead of just going along and how many children futures are going to be limited as a result.



hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 01:07 am
@BillRM,
when I went through we had " Tracking" which had three speeds for HS and for all but the lowest grades otherwise an informal system of grouping kids by ability...mrs Pratt gets the smartest 23 6th graders, mrs jones the next smartest, and mrs Thompson takes the rest....or some variation of that idea. I had one grade where two teachers had the best 2/3 of the students with each teaching only 1/2 of the curriculum and the kids moving half way through the day, and another teacher picked up the slackers. at some point this way of teaching became offensive.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 06:11 am
@hawkeye10,
You know the problem with labeling and tracking is you can not predict when interests and abilities might kicked in with a child and then there is the problem of just mislabeling a student due to him not fitting in with any of the common molds/classifications of students

Thomas Edison for example was label a so call stupid child at one point and his mother took him out of school to home school him as a result.

Can you picture the harm and the delays that could had resulted to the history of technology by that one mislabeling if his mother a former teacher herself had not step in?

Sadly with tracking/labeling we will never know how many Edisons the society have lost due to them not having a mother or someone else to step in for them.

Quote:


http://www.patentdrafting.com/edison.htm

The Education of Thomas Edison

Edison began school in Port Huron, Michigan when he was seven. His teacher, the Reverend G. B. Engle considered Thomas to be a dull student. Thomas especially did not like math. And he asked too many questions. The story goes that the teacher whipped students who asked questions. After three months of school, the teacher called Thomas, "addled," which means confused or mixed up. Thomas stormed home.

The next day, Nancy Edison brought Thomas back to school to talk with Reverend Engle. The teacher told his mother that Thomas couldn't learn. Nancy also became angry at the teacher's strict ways. She took Thomas out of school and decided to home-school him. It appears he briefly attended two more schools. However, his school attendance was not very good. So nearly all his childhood learning took place at home.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 06:56 am
@BillRM,
Tracking went out of favor in the 90s, for good reasons.

Kids get pigeonholed very early in their development, and there is little mobility between the tracks. Therefore, a kid with a poor home life who doesn't get read to gets put in the bottom track, even though they can very much benefit from a richer learning environment.

And the tracking correlates very well with socio-economic status.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 09:57 am
@firefly,
I read it and I'm not persuaded that this is a good idea at all.

I understand why it's happening, though, and the way I see it this is really another good argument to get high stakes testing out of the schools.

First -- some very bright kids are terrible at taking tests and some not as bright kids are great at it. If we're sorting kids based on test scores we are making a mistake.

Second - why would teachers give the same assignment to different groups with different instructions on how to complete it? Wouldn't it be smarter to just say "There are three ways you can approach this -- choose one. When you finish that try another approach. If you have time, give the third way a whirl."

Wouldn't you learn a lot more about each kid? Wouldn't the kids benefit from trying different approaches?

What they're doing now makes no sense to me at all.

What I experienced in my own education and what I've experienced during Mo's education is that teachers really aren't good judges of what a child is capable of doing, or even what they're getting out of any given assignment.

I read the book "How Children Succeed" not long ago. It isn't by getting A grades. Politicians should be required to read this book. Our schools would look very different if they did.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 10:03 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Tracking went out of favor in the 90s, for good reasons.

That's why the dynamic groupings described in that NY Times article are a better alternative, because the groupings are constantly shifting, within the same classroom, to adjust to each child's level of progress and academic need. But it does involve considerably more work, and effort, and ingenuity, on the part of the teacher, to make that sort of model effective.
Quote:
Kids get pigeonholed very early in their development, and there is little mobility between the tracks. Therefore, a kid with a poor home life who doesn't get read to gets put in the bottom track, even though they can very much benefit from a richer learning environment.

And the tracking correlates very well with socio-economic status.

Some kids start school better prepared for it, in various ways, and socio-economic status is a factor there too. That's where early intervention programs, like Head Start, are really important for those kids, to put them on a more equal playing field when they enter school. But now they want to cut those programs--which also help to feed hungry children two nutritious meals a day, as well as increasing their readiness for learning the ABC's. Sesame Street was started for the same reason--to provide some free pre-school learning/instruction via public television, for disadvantaged children, or those who might not have attended a nursery school, or gotten this sort of assistance at home.

I think early intervention programs are still very important for those at the lower end of the socio-economic ladder. We've got to start closing the advantage gap for these children before they even set foot in kindergarten or first grade if we really want to give them a good shot at future academic success.

But, once in elementary school, I do think that some sort of grouping, even continuously shifting groups within a classroom, makes both common and educational sense. You can't just teach to the middle level of the class all the time without the risk of having the struggling students falling even further behind and the faster ones becoming disinterested because they aren't being sufficiently challenged. At some point you need the type of more individualized instruction that isn't easily delivered to a large group. In some academic areas, computerized learning programs, where each student can progress at his or her own pace, might work, but, in other areas, I think it has to come directly from the classroom teacher. So I see the dynamic groupings, of the type described in that NY Times article, as a move in the right direction.

By the time the students are in high school, I think you do need specialized classes that offer either advanced or remedial work in certain areas or subjects because academic ability levels, and strengths and weaknesses, and interests, are more established, and the students are no longer kept together in a single classroom all day long, with only one teacher. But that sort of thing isn't "tracking" it's more akin to providing an individualized level of instruction in certain academic subjects to those students who will most benefit from it, and who might be disadvantaged by being kept in average level classes for all of their subjects.

When it comes to providing a good quality, general education to a mass and diverse population, one size fits all is not the best way to go.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 10:14 am
@firefly,
Quote:
That's why the dynamic groupings described in that NY Times article are a better alternative, because the groupings are constantly shifting, within the same classroom, to adjust to each child's level of progress and academic need.

until the last two years of high school tracking allowed for retracking...kids were bounced up or down between grades as needed.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 10:47 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Kids get pigeonholed very early in their development, and there is little mobility between the tracks. Therefore, a kid with a poor home life who doesn't get read to gets put in the bottom track, even though they can very much benefit from a richer learning environment

an imaginary problem because while the kid might start in the dumb class once they learned to read they could easily get to the top class by devouring books.

Quote:
And the tracking correlates very well with socio-economic status.
sure, because the lower classes tend to not value education, thus dont invest their efforts into it. Fawning over poor kids and efforts to boost their self esteem with imaginary good grades does not change that.

getting rid of tracking and making the smart kids suffer in the name of the self esteem of the dumb has not ended this problem

Quote:
SES and Academic Achievement
Research continues to link lower SES to lower academic achievement and slower rates of academic progress as compared with higher SES communities.
Children from low-SES environments acquire language skills more slowly, exhibit delayed letter recognition and phonological awareness, and are at risk for reading difficulties (Aikens & Barbarin, 2008).Children with higher SES backgrounds were more likely to be proficient on tasks of addition, subtraction, ordinal sequencing, and math word problems than children with lower SES backgrounds (Coley, 2002).Students from low-SES schools entered high school 3.3 grade levels behind students from higher SES schools. In addition, students from the low-SES groups learned less over 4 years than children from higher SES groups, graduating 4.3 grade levels behind those of higher SES groups (Palardy, 2008).In 2007, the high school dropout rate among persons 16- 24 years old was highest in low-income families (16.7%) as compared to high-income families (3.2%) (National Center for Education Statistics, 2008).

http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-education.aspx
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 11:48 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
an imaginary problem because while the kid might start in the dumb class once they learned to read they could easily get to the top class by devouring books.


Give me a break once some kid is place in one track that is the end of the matter in most cases as he or she will not be given the materials to be able to compete with the kids in the higher tracks and the mind set of the teachers will view those children by the lens of the track they had been place into years before.

Who need the paperwork and the headaches of moving some child from the track he or she had been assign to years before.

I been there and as far as being a reader I was a reader of college level text books in some cases along with such books as Asimov intelligent man guide to physics and Paine Age of Reason and the radio ham handbook and did things such as teaching myself how to used my father slide ruler in grade school and yet they had me pin as a middle of the road student and they fought me tooth and nail when it came to blasting out of the way they view me to be able to take the advance courses in the areas I happen to be interest in.

An even when they was looking at the hard proof of my performances in those areas they was telling themselves that they could not had been wrong about me but instead I must be an overachiever.

Thank god they did not at the time have any formal tracks and used a De facto system of pressures and "guidance" to track the children so if you was able to resistance the pressures you could sign up for advances classes.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 11:49 am
@hawkeye10,
i think that liberals will do anything to avoid having schools segregated by class, to include holding the smart kids back and thus hurting the nation by depriving us of super smart adults.
 

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