Did Jesus Actually Exist?

Guess what: Jews of the 1st century left artifacts behind too. The issue is not about proving the existence of a population, but of an individual.

Now, is that arrow tip from Urghll or from Ogg? Err... which Ogg are you talking about? The younger or the older?...

Who said I was upset?

The point is that nobody ever doubts the existence of the average Flavius mentioned in the average parchment. But when it comes to Jesus, nothing less than his fingertips on the real cross would do.

I would wager the average person does not care if Flavius existed or not. In fact, a huge percentage likely never heard of him. They are bombarded with constant reminders to give yourself to Jesus. We have a right to be concerned with the one and not get excited over the other.

I haven't seen you address:

1) Josephus' Antiquities book 20 quote of James the brother of Jesus; you said: in essence everything can be redacted. True but then almost everything written during antiquity could have been redacted. We go by the sources we have. In any case, you said there is no contemporary account by a non Christian author, and that is false, or nearly false since Josephus is born in what, 40 CE?

2) the Talmud numerous mentions of Jesus; I said enough on that, it's all up thread. Not a word from you.

3) the parallels that exist between certain Gospel parables and Talmudic passages, such as the speck and the beam in people's eyes, that are indicative of a shared cultural background --> the gospels' sources are largely Jewish - they do not understand the Roman world well but are well aware of the Jewish culture.

4) the argument that a conspiracy is very hard to fathom. Go ahead, tell us WHO invented Jesus, and why, and how they pulled the scam off. Did they also invent Peter? Paul of whom we have letters, John the Baptist, and James the bro mentioned in point 1 above? And how this invention somehow took hold over so many minds so quickly against all odds, and led to a proliferation of diverse and divergent accounts, dozens of gospels and anti gospels over a few centuries...

The alternative scenario -- that there existed a dude called something like Yeshu or Yeshuah at some point in Galilee who blew a mystical fuse and ended up on a cross for it -- seems much more believable to me.

What proof do we have of Thales' historicity? Or that of any of the pre-Socratics? As I recall we have fragments of books talking about them.

Ok so you are going to adjust the level of proof you require in a historical (therefore scientific) discussion based on the number of people who yell at you in the subway about the individual in question... Now that explains it.

If I did that I would accept Jesus without question.

Give me a break while there are some questions concerning the details of his life there is zero question that he had indeed live unlike the "jesus" of the bible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales#Reliability_of_sources

Nothing more than a few dudes talking about Thales after his death. In a few fragments. So you gimme a break.

So some accepted figures may or may not be real people. So what? How does that help prove your case re Jesus (Jeebus)?

History should not be used and abused as a rhetoric device to fend off Christians or whoever in debates. What you talk about is polemics, not science. It makes for a good argument against freakin' proselytes: "your boy Jeebus did not even exist." Therefore, scientific facts be damned.

My point is that the case against Jesus' existence is polemical, not factual. It's a rhetoric device designed to debase a religion, which has no scientific merit that I can see. It's just a modern form of anti-gospel.

You haven't provided any facts at all.

Nobody's blinder than he who is afraid to open his eyes...

You got that one right.

Nonsense as no one can claimed for sure a man by that name and at that time involved with religious matters did not exist but on the other hands there is zero sold reasons to assume that he did exist.

A few dudes that where some of the outstanding intellectuals of their time period and who gave him credit for works in the field of Ethics, Metaphysics, Mathematics, and Astronomy.

No, this is a religious argument designed to prove that the main device of that religion existed.

You cannot base your evidence of Jesus existence in a simple interpolation of a guy that wrote it decades after the supposed event took place.

I have provide what is pretty much the extent of factual evidence, as I know it. Maybe it's not enough but it's more than we have for Thales... and scores of others.