Did Jesus Actually Exist?

@Thomas,

That proves they are part of the same culture. The same language sphere. However you look at the character, he seems pretty Jewish in his themes and delivery.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

Do you even try to give the idea a chance? Do you care to address any of my points?

You have an ideological approach to this, Ed... Open up a bit, will ya?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

And therefore, the Jesus story cannot be the invention of some Roman writer. Too Jewish for that.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I don't know what you understood but my point was clearly explained. If it's about what happened in Palestine during the 1st century (not about everything at all times, obviously...), I happen to trust the Talmud much more than I trust European anti-christian ideologues from the 19th century onward... You're welcome to place your trust elsewhere, for all I care.

I say "ideologues" because most historians specialist of the era agree that the guy did actually exist. The thesis of Jesus being a myth is motivated by malice, not facts.

What you actually said was:

Quote:

But if there was any merit to the thesis that Jesus was a Pagan invention, that thesis would be relayed in the Talmud.

Those are the words you wrote. I am quoting them exactly...via cut and paste.

That is saying that short of it being mentioned in the Talmud....there is no merit to the thesis that Jesus was a pagan invention.

That simply is faulty logic.

If you acknowledge that your words were not what you meant, we can discuss what you actually meant rather than what you wrote.

Why don't you just do that rather than pretending your point was clear...because if you point was clear...the words stand...and you were being totally illogical.

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@Olivier5,

Pardon me if my approach is overly callous. This is probably the half dozenth thread on this topic. The others were before you started posting. I will bow out and let you and the others who are more involved carry on.

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@edgarblythe,

Sounds like group-think to me.

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@Frank Apisa,

The idea that anyone could invent a Jewish Messiah ex nihilo and right under the nose of the tightly-knit Jewish people, without the notice of their religious authorities, and even with those authorities buying into the scam to the point where they validate the historic existence of this fabricated messiah.... that idea is illogical to the extreme.

You really think they are THAT stupid?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

The idea that anyone could invent a Jewish Messiah ex nihilo and right under the nose of the tightly-knit Jewish people, without the notice of their religious authorities, and even with those authorities buying into the scam to the point where they validate the historic existence of this fabricated messiah.... that idea is illogical to the extreme.

You really think they are THAT stupid?

Assuming the "they" refers to the Jewish people...I certainly do not think them stupid in any way. They seem to me to be exceptionally intelligent.

However, we were not discussing my assumptions about Jewish intelligence. We were discussing something you wrote:

Quote:

But if there was any merit to the thesis that Jesus was a Pagan invention, that thesis would be relayed in the Talmud.

As I noted earlier, that is saying that short of it being mentioned in the Talmud....there is no merit to the thesis that Jesus was a pagan invention.

That simply is faulty logic.

If you would rather play this game than do the ethical thing (own up to the statement being illogical)...fine with me. I'm here for you.

But the statement will not get any more logical because you are dodging it.

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@Frank Apisa,

You just decided to be thick... Oh wait, you can't be anything else even if your life depended on it.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You just decided to be thick... Oh wait, you can't be anything else even if your life depended on it.

I am not being thick, Olivier...you are being obstinate...and refusing to concede you made an illogical statement.

Hey, what else is new?

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@Olivier5,

Sounds like you don't know what you are talking about to me. Nevertheless, sayonara for this thread.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

And you care about each and every one of my statements very very much, don't you?

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@edgarblythe,

Sounds to me you are afraid to debate, without your buddies around telling you what's safe to think.

1 Reply

Quote:

Topic title: Did Jesus Actually Exist?

Haha, of course he did! The only people who say he didn't are a ragbag assortment of atheists, commies and homos etc!
Heck, even the medieval Jewish manuscript 'Toledot Yeshu' (Life of Jesus) admits he existed.. Smile

WIKI Toledot Yeshu- "The narrative in all versions treats Jesus as an exceptional person who from his youth demonstrated unusual wit and wisdom, but disrespect toward his elders and the sages of his age"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledot_Yeshu

Like i've said before, Jesus was a daredevil who wasn't afraid to blow the old farts out of the water! There'll always be daredevils.. Smile

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1493/ebkq.jpg

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Jeez Frank, who is being obstinate here? Let it go.

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Topic title: Did Jesus Actually Exist?

Haha, of course he did! The only people who say he didn't are a ragbag assortment of bonehead atheists, fence-sitting agnostics, commies and homos etc!
Heck, even the medieval Jewish manuscript 'Toledot Yeshu' (Life of Jesus) admits he existed..

WIKI- "The narrative in all versions treats Jesus as an exceptional person who from his youth demonstrated unusual wit and wisdom, but disrespect toward his elders and the sages of his age"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledot_Yeshu

Like i've said before, Jesus was a daredevil who wasn't afraid to blow the old farts out of the water! There'll always be daredevils..

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@Olivier5,

You are not offering any evidence for your position, beyond what I already said it was - all supposition. There was no mention of a Jesus, nor any proof of him, in his supposed lifetime. Jesus was a religious process, like the gods before him. We might as well be talking of practically any other religion, for the truth and logic hardly change. The Talmud is a work by likely intelligent people, but people throughout history misread the truth, regardless of intellect.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

So what does constitute, in your view, a positive proof that say, Shakespeare actually existed? What does it take to prove the historicity of a person? Let's try and establish criteria that would work irrespective of one's religion or lack thereof.

Because if the criteria are that someone from another culture than the dude in question had to mention him during the dude's lifetime, that doesn't leave many historical characters untouched... I wonder if Alexander the great really existed... After all, the only people talking of him during his lifetime were other Greeks, and they could easily have faked the whole story. ;-)

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@Olivier5,

Not all details of Shakespeare are known. I have not investigated that thoroughly, but there appears to be evidence garnered from his lifetime that he at least existed.
If we have to throw in every notable from antiquity, don't forget, they are not supposed Christs, performing miracles. They are not charged with saving humanity's soul, mostly. Alexander, or somebody like him, existed. I am sure evidence of his campaigns and the land he ruled has been verified in both the field and documents.

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@edgarblythe,

I don't see how claims of the divinity of Jesus factor into a determination of whether the person Jesus actually existed.

There is a distinct difference between evidence that the man Jesus existed and evidence that he was everything his followers believe him to be.

That he actually lived over 2,000 years ago is hardly proof that he is the Son of God, that he performed a few miracles, or even actually said any of the things the Bible attributes to him. I can imagine why, though, someone who not only doesn't believe in his divinity but doesn't want others to either,would find the contention that he did not exist, even as some poor schlub of a carpenter, appealing.

Since there are, obviously, no videos or photos of him walking about Jerusalem, and there isn't absolute consensus among scholars that he actually existed, the contention that he did not remains an option for the sane, but it's surprising that someone who finds near unanimity among experts on climate change to be all that's necessary to declare the matter settled and set the wheels of a massive response in motion, so stubbornly holds on to the small minority position concerning the existence of Jesus.

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Did Jesus Actually Exist?

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