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Did Jesus Actually Exist?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 10:06 am
@neologist,
In copies of the pre-Septuagint (the Torah in Koine Greek) "bibles," the name Joshua (Yeshuah) was commonly rendered by the name that we know as Jason, before the second century of the common era. The translation commonly referred to as the Septuagint was produced in the second century, probably the late second century. after the first appearance of "Jesus" in any document. Origen was using a copy of the Septuagint which was undoubtedly corrupt, based on the textual evidence of his writings, but it does not appear that the name Jesus appeared in the text he used. Origen wrote in the latter half of the third century of the common ear. I'd have to go look up his exact dates.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 10:10 am
Origen died either in 253 or 254 CE. He is significant because of his influence on Pamphilus and Pamphilus' protege, Eusebius. Based on the writings of Origen, Pamphilus and Eusebius selected the texts to be included in the canon of the New Testament. Eusebius, although he very likely was an Arian, was the author of the Nicene Creed.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 10:16 am
@izzythepush,
Don't know the tiger one -- could you please tell it? :-)

Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 10:25 am
@neologist,
You're spreading bullshit. Constantine did not "officially" do anything about Christianity, he simply took a pragmatic step to end controversy among his Christian subjects, who were, by the 4th century, a significant part of the population of the eastern portion of the empire. The first ecumenical council was convened at Nicaea, under his auspices, after he had been petitioned by bishops to do something.

Christianity did not become the state religion of the Empire in Constantine's reign. There is also no evidence that he became a Christian himself, although is wife and his mother-in-law were Christians. Christian-biased scholars who want to avoid embarrassment generally allege that he made a death-bed conversion. Stories like that are convenient because they can't be checked, and the subject isn't leaving any documentary evidence after the event.

Of course, you can always go to Wikipedia to dispute my claim-- the article on Christianity becoming the state religions of the empire, and Constantine's alleged conversion was just vandalized on today's date. Eusebius, one of the most widely respected and accomplished liars in the history of historians, is the source of the story that Constantine saw a vision of the Christ before battle, with an inscription In hoc signo vinces ("with this sign you will conquer") emlazoned in the sky. No such story circulated through Roman sources of the time, which would be remarkable if Constantine actually had such a vision and attributed his crucial victory to Jeebus. The only documentary evidence for the establishment of Christianity in the Empire is in the reign of his son, Constans, in the last decade of the fourth century.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 10:33 am
@Setanta,
Constantine's "christianity" bears little resemblance to scripture. It was adopted, as you say, to end controversy.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 10:45 am
@neologist,
You're missing the point that it wasn't Constantine's christianity. That's leaving aside the whole issue of the unreliability of scripture.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 12:12 pm
@Olivier5,
I'm sure you've heard it before. Nasrudin is walking around clapping his hands and the townspeople ask why he's doing it. 'To keep the tigers away,' is his reply. 'But there's no tigers around here,' say the townspeople.
'I know, it works doesn't it.'
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 12:39 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Christianity did not become the state religion of the Empire in Constantine's reign. There is also no evidence that he became a Christian himself, although is wife and his mother-in-law were Christians. Christian-biased scholars who want to avoid embarrassment generally allege that he made a death-bed conversion. Stories like that are convenient because they can't be checked, and the subject isn't leaving any documentary evidence after the event.
Constantin was the first Roman emperor to profess Christianity.
There's no doubt about that.

And he is quite famous as church builder in architectural and art history, too.

He "invented" the collatio lustralis, a tax that "applied to all merchants, money-lenders, craftsmen, and others who received fees for their work, including prostitutes. The only initial exemptions were physicians, teachers, and farmers selling their own produce." (quote from wikipedia)

Regarding his baptism, here's a quote from Britannica, written by J. F. Matthews (Oxford University/Yale)
Quote:
Constantine had hoped to be baptized in the Jordan River, but perhaps because of the lack of opportunity to do so—together possibly with the reflection that his office necessarily involved responsibility for actions hardly compatible with the baptized state—he delayed the ceremony until the end of his life. It was while preparing for a campaign against Persia that he fell ill at Helenopolis. When treatment failed, he made to return to Constantinople but was forced to take to his bed near Nicomedia. There, Constantine received baptism, putting off the imperial purple for the white robes of a neophyte; and he died in 337. He was buried at Constantinople in his church of the Apostles, whose memorials, six on each side, flanked his tomb. Yet this was less an expression of religious megalomania than of Constantine’s literal conviction that he was the successor of the evangelists, having devoted his life and office to the spreading of Christianity.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 02:20 pm
It's the fi4st time i've ever read anything like that. Nevertheless, nothing which you posted states or implies that christianity became the state religion of the empire while he was in power.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 02:25 pm
@izzythepush,
Hahaha... No, didn't know it.

My preferred one is about a neighbour that knocks on Nasruddin's door to ask if he can borrow his donkey for a while. The Mullah is avaricious so he responds: "sorry, I already lent it to my brother, my donkey is not here". Okay says the neighbour, but at this moment, the donkey (who of course was in Nasruddin's compound) brays very loudly. The neighbour reproach Nasruddin for his lies. Then the Mullah answers: "Who are you going to believe? Me, or a donkey?"
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Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 02:26 pm
@Setanta,
The Edict of Milan actually recognized all religions as being legal and acceptable in the Roman Empire, not just Christianity. Its immediate effect was to end any legalized persecution of Christians (and, most probably, that was its intent) but it did not refer to Christianity per se exclusively.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 02:28 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
nothing which you posted states or implies that christianity became the state religion of the empire while he was in power.


It didn't, but Constantine built the fiscal incentives for the Church to profit and progressively take over pagan cults.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 02:35 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Nevertheless, nothing which you posted states or implies that christianity became the state religion of the empire while he was in power.
And I didn't want to say something like that.


Christianity could be called a "state religion" under the reign of Theodosius, after the Edict of Thessalonica. (The first country, where Christianity became a 'state religion', was Armenia, in 301.)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 02:39 pm
Well Walter, you quoted my post which opened with the statement that it did not become the state religion in his reign. Your post also writes of a death-bed conversion, which as i noted, is a convenient allegation, as there would be no subsequent documentation to confirm the event.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 07:08 pm
So Walter and Setanta agree Christianity didn't become the state religion under Constantine.

Moving on....
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 06:34 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Me think we're saying the same thing here. Paul was one of those who made of Jesus a god.

Why did you specifically chose to word your answer in the exact ways you chose? I am interested in your own explanations, if you are willing to explain it to me...

Morning Olivier!
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 06:36 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
So Walter and Setanta agree Christianity didn't become the state religion under Constantine.

Moving on....


:-) let's hope so
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 07:16 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Morning Spades. Paul appears to have taken literally the gospels' "Son of God" phrase, which I believe should be understood as a messianic title, just like the phrase "Son of Man" is a messianic title.
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 02:17 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Morning Spades. Paul appears to have taken literally the gospels' "Son of God" phrase, which I believe should be understood as a messianic title, just like the phrase "Son of Man" is a messianic title.


Correct. In the most inclusive sense, we are all 'sons of God.'
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 04:38 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
Correct. In the most inclusive sense, we are all 'sons of God.'


Exactly. Plus, unless I miss something, the gospel of Luke has: 'he will be CALLED the son of the most high', not 'he will BE the son etc.

Elizabeth II is called Duchess of Normandy, but that's only a title. The French aren't going to wage war about it...
 

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