35
   

Did Jesus Actually Exist?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 03:58 am
@FBM,
No, but his power with the Japanese people was immense, and the IGS knew it--his power with the members of the IGS was immense, as well, no matter how symbolic. MacArthur carefully arranged a meeting with Hirohito in September, 1945. A photograph of the two of them was taken, and circulated throughout the country. Most Japanese had never seen their emperor, and had seen no photographs of him since he was a very young man. Once MacArthur was accepted as, effectively, the Emperor's gaijin shogun, the outward signs of respect were transferred to him. When MacArthur was driven to work each morning, people stopped in the street and bowed to his passing care, bowing until their heads were at a level with their waists, as though it were the emperor himself. The power of those cultural norms was still immense, even after their humiliating defeat in the war. In fact, the Emperor was the only thing that they had been able to salvage from two generations of jingoism, and probably became more precious still in their eyes.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 03:59 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
If i read **** like "Japs" again in what you post, i'll waste no more time on you.


I believe that was common parlance at the time, Set. I personally have never seen the shortened "jap" for "Japanese" to be inherently derogatory. No more than I would see "dave" for "david" or Ted for Theodore. But, do what ya gotta do, eh?

Quote:
No high-ranking Japanese officer who was intelligent enough to be a member of the Imperial General Staff would have been stupid enough to think that the Americans were either cowards or too soft to fight.


The isolationist sentiments prevailing in the US at the time were well known.

Quote:
The evolving Japanese military strategy was based on the peculiar geography of the Pacific Ocean and on the relative weakness and unpreparedness of the Allied military presence in that ocean. The western half of the Pacific is dotted with many islands, large and small, while the eastern half of the ocean is, with the exception of the Hawaiian Islands, almost devoid of landmasses (and hence of usable bases). The British, French, American, and Dutch military forces in the entire Pacific region west of Hawaii amounted to only about 350,000 troops, most of them lacking combat experience and being of disparate nationalities...The Japanese believed that any American and British counteroffensives against this perimeter could be repelled, after which those nations would eventually seek a negotiated peace that would allow Japan to keep her newly won empire.


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/648813/World-War-II/53555/Japanese-policy-1939-41
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 04:02 am
@layman,
Don't call me Set, only my friends call me that. In fact, don't talk to me again, you piece of ****. Your "knowledge" of history is on a par with your cultural sensitivity. Isolationism doesn't make people either cowards or militarily incompetent, you idiot. People in 1941 called the Japanese "Japs" because they were racist idiots--like you.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 04:10 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
People in 1941 called the Japanese "Japs" because they were racist idiots--like you


Heh. Feel better? That presumption that one can read minds is one I never acquired, but I admit it must be GREAT!!
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 04:12 am
@layman,
When you refer to the Japanese as Japs, i don't have to read minds, you make it plain. People in 1941 called the Chinese Chinks, do you think that's OK? People in 1941 call black people n*ggers, is that OK with you? Racist creep.
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 05:07 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

When you refer to the Japanese as Japs, i don't have to read minds, you make it plain. People in 1941 called the Chinese Chinks, do you think that's OK? People in 1941 call black people n*ggers, is that OK with you? Racist creep.


And in 2013 we all called you douche, are you OK with that?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 05:07 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

No, but his power with the Japanese people was immense, and the IGS knew it--his power with the members of the IGS was immense, as well, no matter how symbolic. MacArthur carefully arranged a meeting with Hirohito in September, 1945. A photograph of the two of them was taken, and circulated throughout the country. Most Japanese had never seen their emperor, and had seen no photographs of him since he was a very young man. Once MacArthur was accepted as, effectively, the Emperor's gaijin shogun, the outward signs of respect were transferred to him. When MacArthur was driven to work each morning, people stopped in the street and bowed to his passing care, bowing until their heads were at a level with their waists, as though it were the emperor himself. The power of those cultural norms was still immense, even after their humiliating defeat in the war. In fact, the Emperor was the only thing that they had been able to salvage from two generations of jingoism, and probably became more precious still in their eyes.


I find it interesting that Koreans never had that kind of fanatical devotion for their regents. Despite being more Confucian than China (or so it is said), that is. I wonder how much of the Japanese reverence for their emperors is actually rooted in Confucianism and how much arose from a different source. I don't know much about the tenets of Shinto.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 05:11 am
@Krumple,
Who's we? I've never called anyone a douche. I have however, called you an idiot on numerous occasions, and never felt the need to revise my original assessment.

You're a creepy Holocaust ameliorator, there's very little difference between you and Carlos le Baron.
Krumple
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 05:15 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Who's we? I've never called anyone a douche. I have however, called you an idiot on numerous occasions, and never felt the need to revise my original assessment.

You're a creepy Holocaust ameliorator, there's very little difference between you and Carlos le Baron.


I bet you still can't get over the bully who kicked your butt in first grade either. You like to distort things so you can be butt hurt over them. Call me what you want but you are just distorting the things I actually said and presuming a position that I don't actually have. I have told you this many times but it never seems to get through to you, so if anyone is the idiot here, that would be you.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 05:15 am
@Krumple,
I'm happy to call you an obsessive, ignorant and ranting idiot at any time.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 05:16 am
@Krumple,
And off you go into your fantasy world. Reality really sucks doesn't it. I just call it as I see it, and you're an idiot who tries to belittle the Holocaust.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 05:21 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
To give an equivalent it would be like 9-11 happens yet no one records it until 40 years later. It hasn't even been 20 years since 9-11 yet there already are people who are making up **** about it.

Not a good equivalent. 9/11 was much more newsworthy, and a better equivalent for it would be the sack of Rome. Jesus made no headlines, and it's perfectly understandable. The amount of documentation there is about his life is actually quite remarkable for a person of that era.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 05:29 am
@FBM,
That would be an interesting avenue of research--the origins of shinto. It is significant, i believe, that the legend of Jimmu dates to about the same time as the foundations of shinto. But i believe shinto is older than confucianism. Perhaps it was influenced in its early stages by confucianism. Confucianism is very much concerned with one's place in society, and social harmony. The Japanese, for as long as records are available, have lived at the limit of their agricultural and fishing capacity to feed the population, and it was very close, too. At the beginning of the Tokugawa shogunate, in the early 1600s, the population of Japan was 30,000,000 (very close to that amount, and the records are reliable). The annual rice production of Japan in the early Tokugawa period was 25,000,000 koku. The volume or weight of the koku can be disputed, but it was taken to be the quantity of rice necessary to feed an adult male for one year. So, as you can see, taking into consideration the smaller consumption of children, and the likely smaller consumption of women and the elderly, they were producing just enough to feed everyone. Good social order and harmony were extremely important. The records are not all that good, but it appears that this was so right back into the Yamato period. For 1500 years, the quality of Japanese agriculture was just sufficient to feed the population. Everyone getting along was crucial. Additionally, farmers were held in higher regard than anyone other than the Bushi and the great lords, the Daimyo.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 05:40 am
@Setanta,
A quick Wiki check:

Quote:
Shinto has very ancient roots in the Japanese islands. The recorded history dates to the Kojiki (712) and Nihon Shoki (720), but archeological records date back significantly further. Both are compilations of prior oral traditions. The Kojiki establishes the Japanese imperial family as the foundation of Japanese culture, being the descendants of Amaterasu Omikami[citation needed]. There is also a creation myth and a genealogy of the gods. The Nihonshoki was more interested in creating a structural system of government, foreign policy, religious hierarchy, and domestic social order.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto#Historical_records

Pretty good odds that it arose contemporaneously with Confucianism, with the latter arriving on the islands a bit later.

And in the context of the discussion, the bit about the Kojiki establishing the imperial family as the foundation of Japanese culture is intriguing.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 07:19 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
When you refer to the Japanese as Japs, i don't have to read minds, you make it plain. People in 1941 called the Chinese Chinks, do you think that's OK? People in 1941 call black people n*ggers, is that OK with you? Racist creep.


I have little doubt that you like to think of yourself as a sober, reflective, objective, critical thinker. But the nature of your illogical and emotional outbursts betrays you, I'm afraid.

Quote:
Your "knowledge" of history is on a par with your cultural sensitivity. Isolationism doesn't make people either cowards or militarily incompetent, you idiot. People in 1941 called the Japanese "Japs" because they were racist idiots--like you


If you want to talk about racism in 1941, then you should learn some history yourself. One historian after another after another will tell you that the Japanese considered themselves to be vastly superior, racially and culturally, to Americans in every way. It was THAT hubris that gave them the audacity to attack America.

They knew they could not compete with the USA in any prolonged war. They knew that, materially, it was a lost cause--they simply couldn't compete on that plane. But, they thought their will and warrior spirit would carry them over what they considered to be the spoiled, effete, pacifist cultural mongrels in America. As John Dower noted, in Japanese dogma:

Quote:
all Westerners were assumed to be selfish and egoistic, and incapable of mobilizing for a long fight in a distant place. All the “Western” values which Japanese ideologues and militarists had been condemning since the 1930s, after all, were attacked because they were said to sap the nation’s strength and collective will. It was assumed that the United States war effort would be undercut by any number of debilitating forces endemic to contemporary America’s isolationist sentiment, labor agitation, racial strife, political factionalism, capitalistic or “plutocratic” profiteering, and so on


Japanese illusions about “American decadence and effeteness and their failure to appreciate [America’s] self-confidence and absolutist view of war rooted in the liberal tradition,” observes Richard Betts, “facilitated the miscalculation that Washington would make the cost-benefit calculations Tokyo hoped: accept limited war and sue for peace after severe initial setbacks and the establishment of a Japanese perimeter in the Pacific that would be costly to crack.”

Your grandiose sense of self-importance and your view of yourself as virtually omniscient leads you down some blind alleys.
Krumple
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 08:44 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Jesus made no headlines, and it's perfectly understandable. The amount of documentation there is about his life is actually quite remarkable for a person of that era.


The amount of documentation? Where? There is ONLY one source. Where are these other documents about him?

The point you missed was the level of amazement that he must have induced in people yet NO ONE wrote about him for 40 years? A guy raises the dead yet absolutely no one writes about it for another forty years? Seriously?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 04:47 pm
@Krumple,
You seriously believe the guy rose dead bodies from their graves? Gimme a break...

There are many sources about Jesus: the gospels (two dozens of them, not only the four canonical ones), Josephus, Pliny (the younger i think), Tacitus, Suetone and the Talmud. That's more than we've got for anybody else from that era, except for the Roman emperors and a few other regal/powerful folks.

The basic mistake at the source of much of this 'Jesus doubting' is precisely your problem here: unrealistic expectations about what amount of evidence ought to exist for that dude, given what we know of his life. Take any Jewish sage of the period, eg Hillel or Shammai: the sum-total of what we know of them, from only one source (the Talmud) would fill a page or two...
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 06:33 pm
@layman,
This is typical of your idiocy. That the Japanese were racist--something i have not denied and would not deny--does not excuse anyone else for being racist. Look up the tu quoque fallacy, bright boy. The only emotion i express in responding to you is disgust. Whatever Mr. Dower may say, high ranking members of the IGS and the Imperial Navy staff understood that the Americans could and would fight. Yamamoto, at least, understood that if they attacked the United States, they were doomed. That was the whole point of his remark about dictating terms in the White House.

I certainly don't need lessons in history from a shallow-thinking novice like you. I'm sure that Mr. Dower understands the danger of ascribing universal attitudes to any nation or people, even if you don't.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 06:49 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
I'm sure that Mr. Dower understands the danger of ascribing universal attitudes to any nation or people, even if you don't


I'm sure he does too, and he wasn't doing that. You, however, ARE doing it. You have no problem projecting your personal opinion of what constitutes "racism," and imputing your personal values and standards for determining that, to EACH and EVERY person you encounter.

If YOU conclude that I am "racist" (on the basis of your subjective over-generalizations) then, BY GOD, I am a racist.

Good luck with that.

layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 06:55 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Look up the tu quoque fallacy, bright boy


Look up the strawman fallacy, wise ass. I was in no way trying to defend myself from your insipid accusations that I am a "racist," when I brought up Japanese racism. I brought it up to show YOUR ignorance of history (which, ironically, you want to insist that others have).

It was Japanese racism that, in their mind, justified an attack on America. They (not to the "last man," but in the consensus of those advising the Emperor) were convinced that the Americans would fold quickly because they were racially and culturally inferior.
 

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