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Cannibalism ... Recent trial, and general thoughts.

 
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 12:15 am
What do you think about the recent German cannibal trial?
The german cannibal had a willing victim, his sentence was not as severe as many people would have expected.

I would like to know how that trial might have gone over if it were in Canada or the United states,

Can anyone enlighten me?

I would also be interested in what people think about cannibalism, on any level.[/B]
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roverroad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:30 am
Re: Cannibalism ... Recent trial, and general thoughts.
At the very least the guy should spend the rest of his life in a mental institution. Locked up in solitude so that he can't get to the other inmates. Someone who's crazy enough to do that is more than just a little bit off kilter.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:40 am
How long did he get?

We probably need to discourage the small number of the population who would enagage in mutually agreed upon ritual cannibalism, I suppose - although it has been honoured, I gather, to some degree in some other cultures and formerly in our own - (if the eating symbolically of the flesh of gods which seems to be a reasonably popular religious ritual throughout antiquity is assumed to have once taken a less airy form).

I have no idea of the current assessment of the risk thought to be presented to other citizens by the man in question......that would play a part insentencing, too.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 02:34 pm
dlowan wrote:
How long did he get?

We probably need to discourage the small number of the population who would enagage in mutually agreed upon ritual cannibalism, I suppose - although it has been honoured, I gather, to some degree in some other cultures and formerly in our own - (if the eating symbolically of the flesh of gods which seems to be a reasonably popular religious ritual throughout antiquity is assumed to have once taken a less airy form).

I have no idea of the current assessment of the risk thought to be presented to other citizens by the man in question......that would play a part insentencing, too.


He got eight years.

The details of the case are positively bizarre.

He put an ad on the internet advertising for a "young, well built male to be slaughtered and consumed."

A 43-year-old guy, Mr. Brandes, replied.

They spent the day together. Later on, Mr. Brandes consented to being drugged and having his penis cut off. They both consumed his fileed penis together.

Then, Mr. Brandes consented to drinking cold medicine until he passed out, at which point Mr. Miewes stabbed him in the neck untill he died.

Mr. Miewes is reported to have said his only regret about the process is that the killing took so long. He just wouldn't die, apparently.

Then he froze Mr. Brandes body parts. He ended up eating about 40 pounds of the guy.

During trial, all sorts of bizarre things came out.

For example, Mr. Miewes had fantasized about cannibalism since the gae of eight. He longed to have a good looking younger brother, so he could kill and eat him, thus gaining his power.

Miewes remained light-hearted throughout the trial.

The entire episode was filmed on videotape, and it is clear that Mr. Brandes consented.

The prosecution claimed it was murder, which carries a life sentence. The defense claimed it was a mercy killing, which carries a lighter sentence.

The defense won.

Needless to say, its the oddest case I've ever heard of.

An interesting philosphical perspective:

Quote:


My personal opinion: he should be confined to an institution for life.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 02:54 pm
I'd started a thread about this, more than a year ago, at the beginning of the investigation/trial:

"CANNIBAL SNACKED ON BODY"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
German cannibal gets eight-and-a-half years
Staff and agencies
Friday January 30, 2004

A self-confessed cannibal who killed and ate a man he had met over the internet was sentenced to eight-and-a-half years in prison by a German court today, after being cleared of murder but found guilty of manslaughter.
The court, in the central German town of Kassel, ruled that Armin Meiwes, a 42-year-old computer expert, had no "base motives" in the crime, a decision that spared him a murder conviction.

Meiwes, from the nearby town of Rotenburg, had confessed in detail to the March 2001 killing of 43-year-old Bernd Jürgen Brandes and to eating his flesh when his trial opened last month.

Prosecutors branded Meiwes a "human butcher" who acted simply to "satisfy a sexual impulse", and had sought a life sentence for murder.

But his lawyer, Harald Ermel, successfully argued that the death was "homicide on demand" - a form of mercy killing - because the victim had given his consent to be killed and eaten.

He said that Mr Brandes, who had travelled from Berlin after answering Meiwes's internet postings, wanted to be stabbed to death after drinking a bottle of cold medicine to lose consciousness.

A grisly video Meiwes made of the act was shown to the court in a closed session earlier in the trial. A doctor testified that Brandes died from loss of blood and that the medication, along with a half-bottle of liquor and 20 sleeping pills he took beforehand, could not have lessened his pain.

Several experts testified that Meiwes was fit to stand trial and was not mentally ill.

Police tracked him down and arrested him in December 2002 after a student in Austria alerted them to a message he had posted on the internet seeking a man willing to be killed and eaten.

"I had my big kick and I don't need to do it again," Meiwes told the court at the close of his trial last month.

His victim "came to me of his own free will to end his life. For him, it was a nice death", he said, adding that he now regrets the killing.

"I regret it all very much, but I can't undo it," he said.

Meiwes's willing cooperation during the trial had helped shed light on the murky world of online cannibals, and his case was not an isolated one, police disclosed last month. He estimated that there are at least 800 active participants in cannibal forums, and said he was in contact with at least 400 of them.

Experts said the real number is probably much higher, though only a tiny proportion of those entering cannibal chat-rooms were willing to follow through and meet in real life. Meiwes met only four men.

It was revealed in court that he had been questioned as part of the investigation of two more deaths, in Frankfurt, Germany, and in Austria, but he was not charged in relation to those cases.

Meiwes was in regular contact with people in Switzerland, Austria and America, including Dirk Moeller, a British-based hotel worker who travelled to Germany to meet him and spent an evening at his house playing sexually charged role games, but left unharmed.

source: Guardian
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:05 pm
Cannibalism has been a topic since ages.
Nearly 300 years ago, Jonathan Swift (famous for his 'Gulliver's Travels') wrote:

Quote:
"I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled ..."
source:
A Modest Proposal For Preventing The Children of Poor People in Ireland From Being Aburden to Their Parents or Country, and For Making Them Beneficial to The Public



Welcome to A2K, btw, BuddhaSlap !
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:15 pm
Er - Swift's proposal was satire, you know!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:16 pm
A legal comment, which answers -at least partly- the original question(s):

Quote:
Is it Always Torture to Dismember and Eat a Conscious Human Being?

Possible International Human Rights Claims in the German Cannibalism-by-Consent Case
By NOAH LEAVITT
----
Thursday, Jan. 08, 2004

By now, nearly everyone has heard of Armin Meiwes. Meiwes, a German citizen, has freely admitted to dismembering another German man and eating his flesh. Indeed, Meiwes carefully preserved the killing on videotape and still had pieces of the body in his freezer when he was arrested. During much of the process of dismemberment, the victim reportedly remained conscious.

At first glance, it would seem it should be easy for German authorities to prosecute Meiwes. In fact, however, as the New York Times reported on December 27, though the authorities want to prosecute Meiwes to the fullest extent of the law, they are having trouble finding any serious crimes with which to charge him.

The obstacle to a murder charge is the fact that the evidence incontrovertibly shows that Meiwes's victim wanted to be eaten. Indeed, he had agreed to the arrangement over the Internet, answering an ad placed by Meiwes that specifically sought a person who wanted to be slaughtered and cannibalized.

In the U.S., the victim's consent is no defense to murder, and it would be easy to prosecute an American counterpart to Meiwes. But in Germany, the victim's consent renders the crime a "killing on request" -- that is, an instance of illegal euthanasia. Unfortunately, this offense is punishable by a very modest sentence of from six months to five years of incarceration.

Meanwhile, cannibalism itself is not illegal under German law. Accordingly, the lesser offense of "disturbing the peace of the dead" is all that prosecutors reportedly have come up with to address the fact that Meiwes not only killed his victim, but butchered his corpse.

Despite legal impediments, German prosecutors are still trying to go after Meiwes for murder. They are seeking life imprisonment on the murder charge -- the maximum sentence in Germany, which does not believe in sentencing criminals to death. But to prevail, they will likely to have to show the victim was of unsound mind -- and that Meiwes was aware of that fact. Because of some of the novel issues involved, the case is expected to reach Germany's highest court within the next few years.

But even if the murder charge fails under German law, there may be an option that would cause Meiwes to serve a sentence more commensurate with his crimes. As I will explain below, German prosecutors may want to draw upon European and international human rights agreements against torture when charging Meiwes -- including treaties such as the Convention Against Torture, as well as customary international law against inhuman or degrading treatment.

After all, if human rights law cannot be applied to instances of willful flaying, dismemberment, quasi-human sacrifice and cannibalism, when can it be applied?

Or, put another way, should Meiwes get off so easily simply because Germany does not have a crime specific to the atrocity committed here?

The Option of Using European and International Law to Charge Meiwes

Fortunately for German authorities, within the international legal framework, there are many laws against the kind of treatment that Meiwes meted out to his victim. And these laws take no notice of arguments that the victim somehow consented to what was done to him or her. Instead, they simply make certain kinds of behavior off limits, regardless of the state of mind of the victim.

Invoking international human rights law, German prosecutors should aggressively pursue the Meiwes case as a crime of torture. There is no impediment to their doing so, for in German courts, European Union law and international treaties enjoy a legal status wholly equivalent to that of domestic German statutes. (The same is not true in U.S. courts, though as I have discussed in a prior column, that may be changing.)

Granted, under German law, German constitutional norms will prevail over contrary terms of treaties ratified by Germany. But in this case, the problem with prosecuting Meiwes reportedly is not that the German Constitution forbids it. Instead, the problem is merely that domestic criminal laws are difficult to apply to the unique -- to say the least -- facts of Meiwes's case.

Importantly, there is no due process issue here: Because treaties against torture were part of German law, Meiwes was fully on notice they could apply to his acts -- including his acts against a fellow German citizen.

Indeed, the criminality of Meiwes's acts was hardly subtle. Meiwes's acts, to apply the U.S. distinction, were malum in se -- evil in themselves -- and not malum prohibitum -- evil simply because society says so. It is not as if Meiwes were being indicted for obscure tax offenses; rather, he killed, dismembered, and consumed another human being.

European Law Charges the German Prosecutors Could Bring

What specific charges might German prosecutors bring? To begin, there are a number of European law claims they could raise.

First, they could bring a claim under the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, which Germany has ratified. The Convention states in Article 3 that, "no one should be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." Certainly what Meiwes did to his victim fits this description.


Second, they could try to bring charges pursuant to the European Convention on the Prevention of Torture -- which entered into force in 1989 and which has been ratified by Germany. This agreement created a committee that investigates allegations of torture, primarily by conducting visits to the torture victim's place of confinement. Here, the investigation ought to be brief, as Meiwes has confessed and the nature of his crimes is clear. While the Convention itself does not contain any remedies, it does allow torture victims to bring claims before the highly respected European Court of Human Rights, which has the authority to afford "just satisfaction" to the harmed party (or his heirs).

Customary International Law Charges the German Prosecutors Could Bring

In addition to this European law against torture, there is also international law against torture -- upon which the German prosecutors might also draw.

International law recognizes a select handful of norms, called jus cogens, that are held to form the bedrock legal principles for acceptable civilized existence. Torture is among the actions typically considered to violate these norms, and thus to go against the basic standards of acceptable human behavior.

Customary international law evolves in a variety of ways, including through the decisions of regional and international tribunals, and the writings of certain highly skilled legal experts. It also develops through the work of certain deliberative bodies such as the International Law Commission (ILC), a group of legal experts that codifies international law for the United Nations.

Several years ago, when the ILC drafted the statute for the International Criminal Court, it included torture as one of the crimes over which the Court would have jurisdiction. Unfortunately, however, torture was later removed from the list at the strident insistence of the United States. However, it remains the ILC's own view that torture remains a jus cogens violation.


International Treaty Law Charges the Prosecutors Could Bring

Finally, German prosecutors could look to those international treaties that Germany has ratified -- and thus have been incorporated into German law --- when charging Meiwes.

The International Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (the "Torture Convention") applies only to actions authorized or tacitly permitted by government actors. This does not seem to have been the case with respect to Meiwes's actions.

Thus, prosecutors ought to instead try to invoke the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). ICCPR Article 7 states flatly that "no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."

Moreover, the ICCPR makes states responsible for granting all of the rights provided therein. And it does not require participation, knowledge, or authorization by a governmental actor.

Consent Is No Defense When Torture Is the Offense

These international and European law sources appropriately recognize that, when the crime is torture, the victim's consent is almost completely irrelevant. As has been exhaustibly documented in studies from around the world, torture victims will "consent" to almost anything if faced with enough pain. As a result, a victim's consent to torture can never be trusted.

Thus, the treaties and international customary law are correct not to take consent into account. A victim's consent to be tortured should not -- and does not -- eliminate the torturer's responsibility for his acts. This removes the German authorities' primary obstacle and opens the door for a more appropriate conviction and sentencing for this serious act.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Noah Leavitt, an attorney and author, has worked on a variety of international legal disputes, including assisting the German legal team on a groundbreaking death penalty case before the International Court of Justice in The Hague. He has also worked at the International Law Commission of the U.N. in Geneva. Leavitt can be contacted at [email protected].
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:29 pm
Goodness - I just knew there had to be a cannibal underground!
0 Replies
 
BuddhaSlap
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:36 pm
thank you very much for your replies
0 Replies
 
BuddhaSlap
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:37 pm
Iron lion Zion, thank you every much, you seem brilliant to me
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 06:25 pm
Oh, he killed the guy. Okay, that IS weird. I mean, I would let someone eat some parts of me, as long as I was still alive. Like if Bill Gates offered me a million dollars if he could eat one of my pinkies... or kidneys, or something. That's not so weird.
0 Replies
 
BuddhaSlap
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 11:24 pm
yeah well looks like the big guys covered all the legal matters up there


im still curious what people think about cannibalism, like is it an evil thing?

i think that some people like tomatoes some people like potatoes, and some people like a gently simmered human liver with fava beans, and a nice kianti..

i guess im arguing that what we desire isnt really our fault, its just those impulses we are born with

so we have to fight to use discretion when these impulses may harm others, but some people can only be satisfied through the horrible things they do, is it right for us to hate them for acting on the same impulses we act upon without a second thought, could we really go without our favorite thing in the world, when its right infront of us ripe for the...eating all day long, i say that anyone who has these atrocious urges, but still manages to repress them, is quite an admirable person, although perhaps they shouldnt all be expected to be quite so polite....

thoughts? i really like it when someone opposes my opinions entirely, it helps me to learn
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 07:55 am
Well, I do think it should be discouraged.

It spreads disease...
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 10:24 am
Well, just leaving the cannibalism aside, Mr. Miewes stabbed him until he died. Isn't that murder? Shouldn't murder itself be a life sentence? Also, there appears to be no regret in the murder as Mr. Miewes' only regret was the length of time it took. So, yes I would say he got off easy. Even if Mr. Brandes did consent to his being killed, I would not consider that a mercy killing. A mercy killing would be some one who had an incurable disease, not a healthy young, well built male.

BuddhaSlap - I see what you are saying, but many impulses are illegal. Rape, murder, sex with a minor can all be considered impulses you are born with, but they are illegal. There are other impulses that people deal with day to day that are not as harmful, but still people overcome them. Many people are alcoholics, but still do not drink. Some people have an impulse to pick their nose or scratch themselves, but reframe. Really anyone with a degree of self control, can stop an impulse. Or even in the case of a more serious impulse like an addiction, can stop with a little more work and sometimes the help of others can overcome these impulses.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 10:29 am
Are you people trying to tell me that there are laws against cannibalism?

What the hell!

There goes my weekends.
0 Replies
 
BuddhaSlap
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 10:07 pm
hmm ic

to me it seems like that charge should have been assisted suicide, since the man consented to it, but im not sure exactly what the technicalities of charging someone are.

Im just wondering how much the fact that he ate the man impacted the trial and sentence, i dont think cannibalism is illegal in germany, but is it really something bad, like in canada or the states have their been past cases where someone got a larger sentence because they ate their victim?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 12:41 am
Posted this on the other, above mentioned thread:

Quote:
German cannibal should be retried for murder, appeal court told

By Tony Paterson in Berlin
14 April 2005


Germany's self-confessed "Cannibal of Rotenburg" was at the centre of an appeals court battle after federal prosecutors demanded he face retrial for killing, butchering and eating a male victim he met on the internet in 2001.

Armin Meiwes, 43, was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to eight and a half years imprisonment in March last year for killing and consuming parts of Bernd Juergen Brandes, 41, a gay computer engineer he lured to his 20-room farmhouse through an advertisement on the Web.

Judges had ruled that Meiwes had not enjoyed killing his victim, but had simply gratified a "perverted desire to consume a sympathetic man [to] become part of him".

But prosecutors told Germany's appeals court in Karlsruhe that proceedings against Meiwes should be reopened so he could be sentenced for murder, leading to a possible life sentence.

"For the accused, it was only about fulfilling his fetish for human flesh," the federal prosecutor Lother Senge said. "His crime sank to the lowest possible level in moral terms. His victim was reduced to a mere object as a result of his perverted desires. There were several aspects of the case which imply murder and these have been ignored. He will kill again if he gets the chance."

But Meiwes' lawyer, Harald Ermel, said he was asking the appeal judges to reduce the conviction from manslaughter to "man-slaughter on request", a charge similar to mercy killing. "My client was simply fulfilling the wishes of his victim," Mr Ermel said. "Before the killing, the two men reached an agreement, a sort of pact. One man wanted to kill and eat, the other wanted to be killed. Meiwes was the man who satisfied desires. [The victim] was the driving force."

During the trial, judges described Brandes as "deeply disturbed" after several witnesses testified he was obsessed with having his penis either bitten off or severed with a knife. "For him it was the ultimate kick, " the judge said. "He fully realised that the consequence was death."

Video film of the killing, shot by Meiwes , showed how he cut off Brandes' penis. Both fried the organ in oil and ate it. Brandes bled to death. Meiwes cut up his body, froze it, and consumed the flesh over a few months, before police were tipped off and arrested him in 2002.

Ruth Rissing-van Saan, the presiding Karlsruhe judge, said the appeals court could take several days to decide on any retrial. "We have a mass of evidence to deal with," she said.
Source

Just to clearify it:

the 'appeal court' mentioned in the article above is our highest court, the Federal Court of Justice (Bundesgerichtshof [BGH]) in Karlsruhe. (It represents the final court of appeals for all cases originating in the regional and appellate courts.)
0 Replies
 
lemontree
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 11:02 am
with cases like this, i end up having a conflict of interest.

on one hand, i fully support the idea that two consenting adults can do whatever the hell they'd like, as long as it doesn't have an effect on anyone else.

on the other, cannibalism just kind of seems a bit of a weird way to go about anything.

i would say that there is a definite history of cannibalism around the world (as numerous people have mentioned), and that it is only due to the prevalence of Judeo-Christian beliefs (among others) that cannibalism is viewed negatively. indeed, it seems a cannibalistic religion/belief would be a bit of a catch-22, no?

as such, i do believe that the man should be tested for emotional 'correctness'. i have no qualms with the case being discussed, but i would worry that at a later date the man might possibly go hay-wire and kill people without their consent. of course, that's just me being prejudiced against cannibals.

so, yeah.
0 Replies
 
 

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