1
   

the consequences of the rebellion, and what Jehovah intends to do about it.

 
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:48 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I, for one, am glad we ate the fruit. Without the knowledge of good and evil we would be unable to choose to love deeply. I can't imagine a world like that.


I do think this sucks but in some way it seems as part of reality.

Without hot how would we know cold without bad how would we know good? I do think as humans that we may be able to make the best of reality. Maybe I should say that some of us can.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:52 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I have often said that in the story of the Garden of Eden, God didn't create humans. God created the human form, but it was perfect with nothing to strive for and incapable of choice.

But we didn't become truly human until we ate the fruit. It was the serpent who created humans.
I'll have to go along with the idea that Moses had some understanding of what he was writing. He also wrote the book of Job. Did you know that? Job 2:4 gives Satan's allegation against the humans he 'liberated': "Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul." Are we really like that? Or, is it just a lie?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:54 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I have often said that in the story of the Garden of Eden, God didn't create humans. God created the human form, but it was perfect with nothing to strive for and incapable of choice.

But we didn't become truly human until we ate the fruit. It was the serpent who created humans.


I have a different take on it. I think the bible may of had it correct in saying in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was God.

Words are what gave birth to creation as we know it, otherwise we would be living in a world similar to other animals.

It was our ability to create words and logically string them together and make coherent sentences, that enabled us to name things and have a deep and philosophical understanding of realty that we now posses.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 05:39 am
@neologist,
Satan had nothing to do with what happened in the garden. It was a serpent... a snake, a created animal.

God punishes snakes for what happened in the Garden of Eden. This wouldn't make any sense if "serpent" was being used as a euphemism for some powerful spiritual being.

From the Genesis story

Quote:
Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”


This passage isn't talking about some evil spiritual entity. Spiritual entities don't have offspring that slither around in the dust.

It is talking about an animal.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 09:47 am
@reasoning logic,
I think I have contributed all that I possibly could to this topic now that we have begun a discussion of intelligent snakes.

Check, please.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 12:47 pm
@neologist,
I thought you were a Bible believer Neologist. In this story the serpent was one of the created animals.

Quote:
Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made...


http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/genesis/3

I am surprised so see you dismissing as ridiculous something that the Bible says quite clearly. It was a serpent
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 12:52 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I thought you were a Bible believer Neologist.

Quote:
Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made...


http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/genesis/3
I thought you would do your homework, Max, (Revelation 12:9) . . . So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth. . .
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 12:54 pm
@neologist,
Revelations says nothing about the Garden of Eden.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 12:57 pm
@maxdancona,
No need to repeat yourself. One misconception is enough
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 12:58 pm
@neologist,
Revelations says nothing about the Garden of Eden. Are you really saying that Satan was one of the wild beasts of the field that the Lord Jehovah had made?

This doesn't make any sense. Revelations is clear talking about a figurative serpent. Genesis is clearly talking about a literal serpent (unless you think that those things that crawl in the dust today are literal offsprings of Satan).
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 01:01 pm
@neologist,
If you are going to argue this point, the please explain the text to me.

Why is the serpent called a "wild beast that the Lord Jehovah had made"?
Why is the serpent compared to the other animals (i.e. the "most cautious")?
Why were the animals we know as snakes cursed by God?

Your point of view is clearly at odds with the Word of God. If you are going to call it is "misconception" than you should at least explain your reasoning. Revelations doesn't help, clearly the serpent in revelations (which was thrown down from heaven) is different than the serpent in Genesis (which was on of the wild beasts created by God).
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 01:02 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Revelations says nothing about the Garden of Eden. Are you really saying that Satan was one of the wild beasts of the field that the Lord Jehovah had made?

This doesn't make any sense. Revelations is clear talking about a figurative serpent. Genesis is clearly talking about a literal serpent (unless you think that those things that crawl in the dust today are literal offsprings of Satan).
You fall for your own myopia if you insist The Genesis serpent was completely literal, rather than simply a creature used by Satan to deceive. He no doubt needed some familiar form in which to appear to Eve.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 01:04 pm
@neologist,
So why did God punish the real snakes?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 01:14 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
So why did God punish the real snakes?
Actually a good question. I have no idea what that passage actually means. I will research it and be back later this evening. Meanwhile, I will check my records to see if any snakes have been harmed by this event.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 02:54 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Thanks for helping me sharpen my point. Satan has set himself as rival in that he has taken control of our present system of things. This is evident in several places, paricularly where he offers all the world kingdoms to Jesus. He could not offer what he does not have. This position makes him the 'ruler of this world' as he is referred to in several places. Thus, he is a rival god.

He is resistor in that he attempts to foil any attempts for humans to learn truth.


So then, you're making up your own definitions.

Understood.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 04:01 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
I have no idea what that passage actually means. I will research it and be back later this evening. Meanwhile, I will check my records to see if any snakes have been harmed by this event.


While your at it could you research what exodus 34:28 claims to be the ten commandments but yet they are different than what most Christians claim them to be?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 06:04 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
If Adam and Eve had obeyed, they would still be here and we would not have war and crime and sickness and death


how do you know that?
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 06:17 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:

how do you know that?


That is a silly question. Haven't you heard of the song "for bible tells me so? Well any ways it is something like this if you are a Christian believer.

ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 06:20 pm
@reasoning logic,
I'm not asking where someone read it.

I'm asking how they know it.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 May, 2013 06:24 pm
@ehBeth,
I see you did not watch the little girl sing that short song?
 

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