1
   

the consequences of the rebellion, and what Jehovah intends to do about it.

 
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 08:30 am
@neologist,
Quote:
Do you truly suppose he was considering human sacrifice, like the Baal worshipers?


That is what it seems like to me, He said a burnt offering.

Quote:
I'm sure he never expected his daughter to be the the one who cam to meet him


How many people do you suppose were going to come through his door to meet him? Maybe he was thinking of a goat?

Do you think that he may have been tired of his wife and this was his way of getting rid of her but it backfired or did he do this once before and that is why I do not remember anything about his wife?

Quote:
The fact that all involved respected the vow shows the degree of importance Jehovah attaches to vows.


I see a sign of obsessive compulsive.


Quote:
BTW, if you don't believe it, why be concerned with it?


I am concerned what other people do with these lessons that they learn. When they are taught that the bible is absolute truth mixed with miracles anything can happen. I think it is like playing a killing video game for some people and then they go and act out on it.

I guess that is a bad example because not everyone playing the video game believes it to be true.

0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 09:41 am
@reasoning logic,
Since we are so far off the Original topic. I hope you don't mind me commenting on subjects as I see fit and according to my available time.
reasoning logic wrote:
. . .. God said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all your people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among whom you are shall see the work of the LORD: for it is an awesome thing that I will do with you.

God seems as if he wants people to think he is awesome here. . . .
Sure seems like it. Perhaps he is
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 09:53 am
@neologist,
Quote:
Sure seems like it. Perhaps he is


He sure seemed to be dominant by his description of being able to kill off all the surrounding nations but haven't other groups of apes been able to do the same?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 10:12 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
neo wrote:
Sure seems like it. Perhaps he is


He sure seemed to be dominant by his description of being able to kill off all the surrounding nations but haven't other groups of apes been able to do the same?
I am not a student of apes, although in my competitive days, I was often referred to as a gorilla.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 10:15 am
@neologist,
Factually incorrect.

The word Satan is from the Hebrew for "accuser".

There is also no reason to believe that Satan was in, or had anything to do with the Garden of Eden.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 11:06 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Factually incorrect.

The word Satan is from the Hebrew for "accuser".

There is also no reason to believe that Satan was in, or had anything to do with the Garden of Eden.
When you accuse the rule giver of lying, you are rebelling. As for whether Satan had anything to do with Eden, he is referred to in Revelation 12: 9: " So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan", The word devil meaning, I suppose, slanderer or liar.

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 01:56 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
neologist wrote:
OK, I'll go with adversary, obstructor, opposer, resistor, even rival. In Satan's case that would make him a rebel, since he was under Jehovah's sovereignty.
Your meaning doesn't follow, though. Used alone "satan" is a verb. When it appears as "ha-satan" it is used as a noun with a different meaning than the verb. Where do you get this meaning from?
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Satan is referred to as an individual over 50 times in the Bible.

The question is, from where do you get the meanings of "resistor" and "rival"?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 02:10 pm
@InfraBlue,
Thanks for helping me sharpen my point. Satan has set himself as rival in that he has taken control of our present system of things. This is evident in several places, paricularly where he offers all the world kingdoms to Jesus. He could not offer what he does not have. This position makes him the 'ruler of this world' as he is referred to in several places. Thus, he is a rival god.

He is resistor in that he attempts to foil any attempts for humans to learn truth.
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 02:25 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Thanks for helping me sharpen my point. Satan has set himself as rival in that he has taken control of our present system of things. This is evident in several places, paricularly where he offers all the world kingdoms to Jesus.


You seem to take the bible as if it were reality. I think there is some truth in it but if I were to share reality as I see it, it would not have Satan as the ruler but rather the religions of the world.

When I look around I see churches going up all around me and they do not talk about worshiping Satan but rather Jesus and God. I do not know of any churches where I live that profess Satan as their God.

Personally I see God as Satan but religions teach it with a twist. I do not think that the majority of them mean to to that but what else can we expect when they are unable to think for themselves or should I say understand or have an interest in reality?
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 03:41 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
He is resistor in that he attempts to foil any attempts for humans to learn truth.


You are confusing Satan with God. It was God who wouldn't let Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge. It was only when humans gained knowledge that we were cast out of the Garden of Eden.



reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:15 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
It was God who wouldn't let Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge.
I thought God taught against it because they would not be under his mind control but he did let them do it but he did kill them in the end. It reminds me of slave masters who did not want their slaves to become educated.
Who would want a slave that is more educated than them?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:18 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Quote:
He is resistor in that he attempts to foil any attempts for humans to learn truth.


You are confusing Satan with God. It was God who wouldn't let Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge. It was only when humans gained knowledge that we were cast out of the Garden of Eden.
Yeah.What sort of knowledge? Did you look that up? And, of course, they had no idea what the consequence would be. Right? If Adam and Eve had obeyed, they would still be here and we would not have war and crime and sickness and death
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:23 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for helping me sharpen my point. Satan has set himself as rival in that he has taken control of our present system of things. This is evident in several places, particularly where he offers all the world kingdoms to Jesus.


You seem to take the bible as if it were reality. I think there is some truth in it but if I were to share reality as I see it, it would not have Satan as the ruler but rather the religions of the world.

When I look around I see churches going up all around me and they do not talk about worshiping Satan but rather Jesus and God. I do not know of any churches where I live that profess Satan as their God.

Personally I see God as Satan but religions teach it with a twist. I do not think that the majority of them mean to to that but what else can we expect when they are unable to think for themselves or should I say understand or have an interest in reality?
I'd like to say "Yeah, what you said." But I have no idea what you have just said. But I do accept Paul's asseveration that "All Scripture is inspired of God . . . 2Timothty 3:16)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:26 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
Quote:
It was God who wouldn't let Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge.
I thought God taught against it because they would not be under his mind control but he did let them do it but he did kill them in the end. It reminds me of slave masters who did not want their slaves to become educated.
Who would want a slave that is more educated than them?
Do you assume God created humans to be robotic slaves? With no free will? How then, were they able to opt for Satan's choice?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:29 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Do you assume God created humans to be robotic slaves? With no free will? How then, were they able to opt for Satan's choice?


I thought that you knew by now, I have respect for you and others like my own mother but I do not read the bible as if it were all reality and in my opinion it is probably less than 25% true.

neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:36 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
neo wrote:
Do you assume God created humans to be robotic slaves? With no free will? How then, were they able to opt for Satan's choice?
I thought that you knew by now, I have respect for you and others like my own mother but I do not read the bible as if it were all reality and in my opinion it is probably less than 25% true.
That would make it useless as a subject for discussion. So, why are we here?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:39 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
That would make it useless as a subject for discussion. So, why are we here?


The bible is not useless it adds great insight into human behavior of the past and present.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:40 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Yeah.What sort of knowledge? Did you look that up? And, of course, they had no idea what the consequence would be. Right? If Adam and Eve had obeyed, they would still be here and we would not have war and crime and sickness and death


So you are agreeing with me that it was God who wanted to foil any attempts for humans to learn truth, right? No you are arguing that God had a good reason to keep humans from understanding the truth. (These are two different lines of argument altogether).

My feeling is that without eating the fruit, humans wouldn't be humans. Sure you would not have war and crime and sickness and death.

But you also wouldn't have heroism, or self-sacrifice, or striving to overcome, or redemption or the acts of great beauty that humans are capable of. Without the ability to sin, there is no ability to choose to do good.

I, for one, am glad we ate the fruit. Without the knowledge of good and evil we would be unable to choose to love deeply. I can't imagine a world like that.

reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:44 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Sure you would not have war and crime and sickness and death.


Are you suggesting that because we were not able to name what was taking place that it would not of happened? Do you really think that God cursed the whole earth and the other animals as well?

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 May, 2013 04:45 pm
@maxdancona,
I have often said that in the story of the Garden of Eden, God didn't create humans. God created the human form, but it was perfect with nothing to strive for and incapable of choice.

But we didn't become truly human until we ate the fruit. It was the serpent who created humans.
 

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