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Evolution: What Real Scientists Have to Say

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 05:38 pm
I think it important to point out that Medved/Holden doesn't give a rat's patoot what we write here, as his only purpose is to put a gloss of intellectual respectability on his claptrap through its appearance on a site which has a fairly high page-ranking. He just wants to spread his manure as widely as possible, and his effort will have been facilitated by the laziness of "surfers" who won't bother to carefully read the thread, and will simply imbibe the nonsense with which he begins each one. I also suspect that he hopes to discredit us by starting a flame fight--in comparison to the clueless, he's pretty slick. In honest and open debate, with the strong possibility of having his hand called, he's lost.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 06:00 pm
hmmm, rabbits words are iron.
Ill go outside now and get a life.

wow a fossil sasquatch, ! who ya gonna call.?
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 06:09 pm
'Kay, I have the attention span of a gnat, so I didn't read much of this thread.

Did anyone bring up the topic of a particular type of asexual worm? (Hmmm...aren't they all asexual?) I recall reading an article in the paper within the last month or so about this worm which scientists had determined to have quite a lengthy history as an earth dweller. But the puzzling factor was how these worms could have lasted so long and thrive when reproduction was only via asexual means. According to the tenets of the theory of evolution, biological diversity is through sexual reproduction -- the mixing of genetic material. This doesn't happen with asexual reproduction. It gave these particular scientists pause for thought on the theory of evolution -- perhaps this was not the sole explanation.

I wish I could remember more details, particularly the name of this worm. I just wondered if anyone else had read about this.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 07:04 pm
ebrown wrote:
Quote:
But don't come looking for a fight.

And don't personally insult a A2K member who happens to have a good deal of scientific knowldge, especially when it is clear that you don't.


Um was I combative here? And who did I insult?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 07:40 pm
Caprice writes:
Quote:
Did anyone bring up the topic of a particular type of asexual worm? (Hmmm...aren't they all asexual?) I recall reading an article in the paper within the last month or so about this worm which scientists had determined to have quite a lengthy history as an earth dweller. But the puzzling factor was how these worms could have lasted so long and thrive when reproduction was only via asexual means.


It has been a long time since biology class, but I believe echonoderms, jellyfish, corals, and tapeworms are all asexual. Also unfertilized eggs of wasps and honeybees produce male wasps and bees while fertilized eggs produce females. All I am sure evolved for a very long period. Asexual reproduction would be so much more efficient I guess, but my goodness they sure wouldn't have much fun. Smile
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 08:09 pm
Evolution education down to a science on Web
Evolution education down to a science on Web
UC Berkeley experts offer advice on facing 'pitfalls'
David Perlman, Chronicle Science Editor
Monday, March 29, 2004
©2004 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback | FAQ
URL: sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/03/29/MNGQV5SIDC1.DTL

As controversies simmer across the country over teaching evolution, scientists at UC Berkeley are taking the offensive against the modern-day foes of Charles Darwin.

Experts at the university's Museum of Paleontology have created a new Web site designed to offer beleaguered classroom teachers support and guidance through the often slippery attacks they can encounter teaching natural selection and other concepts.

The site, at evolution.berkeley.edu, grew out of a conference that the museum hosted four years ago at which representatives from virtually every national scientific and education organization gathered to consider the growing pressures against evolution curricula.

"We realized we really needed to put new resources into teachers' hands, and that's how the idea of using the Internet emerged," said David Lindberg, chairman of Berkeley's Department of Integrative Biology and former director of the paleontology museum.

The Web site was developed with a $460,000, three-year grant from the National Science Foundation, and its creators have another $380,000 grant -- this time from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute -- to develop a version for the general public and another for students.

The new site offers a basic course in the methods of science and, in particular, the mechanics of evolution. It provides a history of evolutionary thought and discusses "misconceptions" and "pitfalls" that teachers may confront in explaining evolutionary concepts.

"Evolution, simply put, is descent with modification," the Web site states in its introduction. "Through the process of descent with modification, the common ancestor of life on Earth gave rise to the fantastic diversity that we see documented in the fossil record and around us today.

"Evolution means that we're all distant cousins: humans and oak trees, hummingbirds and whales."

Lindberg said the site tries wherever possible to show how evolution affects people in everyday life, and he offers flu shots as an example. "The power of the flu vaccine doesn't just wear out year by year," he explains. "But we need new shots each year because new species of the flu virus continually evolve that are resistant to the previous year's strains of the virus that are used in the shots."

Scientists often argue about the detailed processes in evolution -- whether new species emerge slowly or rapidly, or whether Darwin's concept of "natural selection" is the only mechanism for change over time -- but they consider evolution itself to be a fact as solid as gravity or the round Earth.

Opponents, however, insist evolution cannot fully explain how long life has flourished and how its manifold species have come to be. Some are avowed "creationists" who hold the Bible and Genesis as literally true, while others believe in "intelligent design" -- a view that humans, and indeed all organisms, are so complex that only some unknown intelligence must be guiding at all.

Intelligent design advocates include a small body of credentialed scientists. In the past few years, they have virtually supplanted the creationists in dominating the controversies that are ongoing in cities and states from Georgia to California.

Experts at the National Center for Science Education, based in Oakland, say that the teaching of evolution in public schools is under active attack in at least four state legislatures, four state departments of education and five local school boards, including one in the Sacramento suburb of Roseville.

Last month, Larry Caldwell, a Roseville attorney representing a small group of parents, renewed a yearlong dispute over teaching evolution there by filing a complaint against the local Union High School District. Caldwell's complaint contends that the district has unconstitutionally refused to provide students with access to what he maintains are "all sides" of a legitimate scientific debate.

He insists he merely wants Roseville high school biology teachers to "help students develop critical thinking skills in relation to science, by introducing them to scientific evidence that poses challenges to evolutionary theory, as well as scientific evidence that supports evolutionary theory."

To Caldwell, the dispute is basically over the school district's refusal to allow teachers to expose students to what he calls a "dissenting scientific viewpoint" over evolution as opposed to the "orthodox scientific viewpoint," and to provide them with a textbook challenging the standard concepts of evolution.

But Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, which is dedicated to "defending the teaching of evolution in the public schools," insists Caldwell's motives are suspect.

"Evolution is a science, a fact, and it's not something to vote on," Scott said in an interview. "When alternate views on evolution are proposed to be taught, they must be about accepted scientific alternatives, and they need to be appropriate to the knowledge base of the students. Caldwell's proposal in Roseville doesn't meet either of these criteria.

"Let's be grown up about this: We're talking God in this dispute, not real issues in science," Scott continued. "That's what's really unconstitutional about debates over teaching evolution in Roseville."

Caldwell said in an interview that he supports the intelligent design view of how life's complexity has arisen, but seeks only to have that view and others that challenge "orthodoxy" represented in impartial biology classes. The Roseville high school district, Caldwell argues, is unconstitutionally excluding supplemental evolution materials from biology classes.

The new UC Berkeley Web site on evolution contains entire sections on "potential pitfalls" and "overcoming roadblocks" that teachers may encounter as they teach evolution.

To overcome one roadblock, for example, teachers are urged to point out to students that "there are no alternative scientific theories to account for the observations explained by evolutionary theory. Alternative 'theories' that have been proposed for insertion into the science curriculum have not been supported by valid science and are often based on belief rather than science."

And a "potential pitfall," the Web site notes, might come when a student asks whether a biology teacher "believes" in evolution. The recommended answer: "No, I accept the fact that the Earth is very old and life has changed over billions of years because that is what the evidence tells us. Science is not about belief -- it is about making inferences based on evidence."

To Caldwell, the entire Web site is "a shocking misuse of the University of California's resources," and proof that UC's only aim is to "indoctrinate" students rather than offer them legitimate education.

But Judith Scotchmoor, director of education at the UC paleontology museum, said the new Web site is not about indoctrination or religion. Rather, she said, it is a "nonconfrontational way to help biology teachers cope with the confusions their students may have about evolution, and to help students understand the difference between science and religion in the controversies over evolution that keep endlessly cropping up in schools all over the country. "
-------------------------------------------
E-mail David Perlman at [email protected].
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 08:14 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

It has been a long time since biology class, but I believe echonoderms, jellyfish, corals, and tapeworms are all asexual. Also unfertilized eggs of wasps and honeybees produce male wasps and bees while fertilized eggs produce females. All I am sure evolved for a very long period. Asexual reproduction would be so much more efficient I guess, but my goodness they sure wouldn't have much fun. Smile


The point of the article I read is that these worms were amongst the oldest creatures, living or dead, in the world. So older than those you had mentioned.
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 08:23 pm
Echinoderms most certainly reproduce sexually. Sea urchins are the model system for fertilization. Most worms reproduce sexually, too. C. elegans, fer instance (and many others), can be hermaphroditic, but not asexual. Corals, too, reproduce sexually; video footage of the simultaneous release of gametes is spectacular.

And there's nothing wrong with asexual reproduction so long as the need for genetic diversity does no arise. There is a species of frog on some island in the specific (good for detail, I am) that reproduces exclusively through parthenogenesis. A meiotic defect has evolved whereby some eggs receive a full genetic complement and develop into "normal" females. Occasionally happens in snakes, as well.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 08:58 pm
This is site for educators & all interested in the subje
This is the site for educators and all interested in the subject:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 10:45 pm
I didn't know that about the meiotic defect thing, listening.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 10:46 pm
P'dog, you're in school for all of us..








though let me guess, on good days you research past class requirements. I can just tell.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 11:17 pm
Patiodog writes:
Quote:
Echinoderms most certainly reproduce sexually. Sea urchins are the model system for fertilization. Most worms reproduce sexually, too. C. elegans, fer instance (and many others), can be hermaphroditic, but not asexual. Corals, too, reproduce sexually; video footage of the simultaneous release of gametes is spectacular.
'

Well you may be right for I am working from ancient memory. And yes, I recall that some echinoderms do reproduce sexually but many echinoderms as well as corals, many types of worms, etc. produce by budding - they grow a 'bud' or appendage that separates and forms into a new worm or whatever. But it is by an asexual process. At least that is what I think I was taught.
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 02:14 am
p.dog: But can you imagine something around for millions of years or so and not needing diversity? I think these were the questions the scientists in the article were asking. I just can't recall enough details to do it justice.
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 12:23 pm
Dear Lord, I don't know as much as I let on...

Couldn't find anything about the frog I'm thinking of (did I dream it?), but here's a bit on a unisexual lizard that reproduces through parthenogenesis. They say it produces oocytes by simple mitosis, meaning no recombination (which wouldn't increase diversity anyway).
http://wc.pima.edu/Bfiero/tucsonecology/animals/rept_sswh.htm

Plenty of asexual reproduction in lower animals, but very few, so far as I know, that lack sexual reproduction altogether. My old biol. teacher was a mycologist by training, and talked about all kinds of weird and complicated systems ensuring sexual reproduction in fungi.

caprice wrote:
p.dog: But can you imagine something around for millions of years or so and not needing diversity? I think these were the questions the scientists in the article were asking. I just can't recall enough details to do it justice.


It'd be a heck of a feat, I'm sure. This may be why the example from the island sticks in my mind. Limited range, no predators, constant climate. Wish I could dredge up a link...
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 02:28 pm
Maybe it was a frog...I thought it was a worm...but that frog story rings a bell with me. Can't rely on my memory for details that's for sure! Very Happy

I remember my first lab doing mycology. We'd been taught in the "bacteriology" section (never actually called that and to me it sounds like an old-fashioned term, even though I imagine it's still used today) that sometimes colonies will emit a distinctive odour that can assist you in confirming the organism. (e.g. Pseudomonas
aeruginosa supposedly smelling like grapes. Smelled a bit sweet to me, but not like grapes.) So there I go, opening up a culture plate and takin' a whiff! What a fool. I was advised against doing this with any fungal cultures as their airborne components could easily find their way into my lungs. Yikes!

Live and learn. Very Happy
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 02:33 pm
Oy. Some of the most stomach-churning case photos I've seen are of fungal infections. Nasty.
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 02:36 pm
caprice wrote:
I was advised against doing this with any fungal cultures as their airborne components could easily find their way into my lungs. Yikes!
Live and learn. Very Happy


remind me of the commercial out with the little buggies under the toenails Rolling Eyes
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 02:38 pm
patiodog wrote:
Oy. Some of the most stomach-churning case photos I've seen are of fungal infections. Nasty.

I know a lady fighting flesh eating bacteria - want pictures - right now she's ok - but damn stuff keeps coming back - like the energizer bunny of badcrap!
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 05:04 pm
p'dog, has anyone done the genome of "flesh eating" bacteria? I keep remembering something that Lynn Margulis had said about the fasciating bac't had a genome that included a section of genome of a "captured "symbiont. I dont know if this was fact or a bad recolletion
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 08:09 pm
patiodog wrote:
Oy. Some of the most stomach-churning case photos I've seen are of fungal infections. Nasty.


Oh yeah.

Speaking of somach churning....when we did parasites, I couldn't eat pasta for a month! *LOL*
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