What does justice mean to you?

there is no guilt because there is no free will the approach much change

wtf Utopia has anything to do with a wrong approach

Oxford Dictionary
adjective
modelled on or aiming for a state in which everything is perfect; idealistic:

noun
an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect. The word was first used in the book Utopia (1516) by Sir Thomas More. The opposite of dystopia.
Origin:
based on Greek ou 'not' + topos 'place'

it is a MULTIFACTORIAL process integrating several aspects that go from some non invasive surgical intervention when justified to :
- psychology – we already have those
- education – we already have that
- moral introspection – we already have that -churches / greenies / civil libertarians / interest groups,
- group therapy : we already have those

- and so forth, sided with an inclusive stable economic project : That sounds like a whole debate just by itself (what does ‘inclusive’ mean, and what skills are necessary, and what sort of project, and how is it going to be economically feasible etc) . It sounds rather communistic too – which (if it is) has been proven to not work

- ...having genuine acceptance (of what?) and believing the honest intention of society in this conversion (sounds utopian again), is paramount to its success...

I can certainly see the argument were the concept of guilt is useful Guilt isn't a concept - it's an emotional reaction to the breaking of a concept that has meaning to you

...I can even seen an argument were the constrain of punishment might be deemed educative...that in turn wont change the fact the if we aren't free we aren't in fact responsible, and thus that the perception got to change Do you mean the 'perception of guilt' (it's not clear). If so, see my previous comment regarding personal feelings of guilt.

If you though mean, others 'blaming you for something' - I see contributing circumstances and personal responsibility.

...as also that doesn't mean that we can't be controlled or influenced in a given direction...the role of society as any self supporting efficient system is to ensure all parts are working properly and fit its place...our problem is not about crime or Justice being a tool, a conceptual convenience...our problem is lack of control in micro management of the whole shebang... Ummm...doesn't you wanting more control imply even more micro management?


I am truly convinced a substantial raise in average IQ might get us critical mass for a revolution as important as the one we had in neolithic with substantial impact in this field... you do notice that as people get more educated they tend to get more cynical about spirituality? (and lets face it, philosophy is a branch of spirituality - for it requires the observance of the 'self')...and the more information thrown at children, the longer they take to grow up?

There is also the issue of actually motivating people to want to learn. Sure plenty will be - but guess where most of the crime comes from - those who aren't motivated to learn.


PS - Don't you worry the system will only change when a real need of improvement becomes critical...I would gladly concede now is not the time, but given the rhythm of change maybe it won't take long...

Well - I think the system needs a huge overhall right now. But for numerous reasons, I doubt that will happen.

...one more thing, I don't, at all, oppose power struggle I totally favour Darwinian competition...so the argument doesn't stick ...the point being made is the level on which competition will take place, a barbaric inefficient one, or a struggle of the minds that does not disturb the overall pace of progress...partially civilization has been build on that premise ! You do understand that wasn't the topic I was talking about when I mentioned the power drive & drive towards society? I was talking about the Justice System (and it's view of free will) - and a sideline comparative regarding defense systems.

It could be said that just because you favour a concept - does not mean you've made the connection or understood the interworkings between it and another concept.

When you say most of those measures I suggested already exist (I saw that one coming exactly as it did) you forget to mention most of them are a freaking comedy in the form of role-playing...not only they don't have a solid scientific basis, but their implementation is tragic...there is a long way to go for human sciences and their institutional usefulness yet to be build ! I'm glad you saw it coming - I'd be worried if you didn't. So how much money is thrown at those systems? How much more is needed to even try and get near what you want? Are the 'teachers/counsellors/etc in those systems not trying? Why then did they study to take part in those systems?

And on the other side :

How do you make someone want to get help? How do you motivate a child who's parents don't give two bits about learning, to learn? How do you break the cycle of poverty (closely related to the previous sentence). How do you change a person from a victim mentallity to an empowered person? How do you change someone who doesn't want to be changed?

1- Concepts on which you believe can have real effects onto your psyche

you track down your steps, see what you've done wrong and retrospectively attempt a mind scenario for a correction

2- if responsibility can't be supported on free will

6 - Again yes education has taken longer and longer, and somewhat as become far more confusing for the common Joe...so what ? that only signals the need for a far more complex approach to life.

7 - Motivation to learn, or to do anything else, is about inclusiveness and shared experiences...

If I were to speak triviality's on our present condition I rather shut up...but there, you got me talking on them...

11 - Your last observation is odd...weren't we generally talking about crime ? We would enforce measures through Legislation what else ?
(Before the Judicial system you have the educational system, social security, NGO's and so forth)

Wow...all those psychologists who studied human motivation should never have bothered - it was all so simple. The Behavioural scientists who studied socio-economics vs upbringing&education (ie the cycle of poverty) should never have bothered...even if no-one has ever come up with a good solution to it - apparently you have the answer...

if responsibility can't be supported on free will

Again Vik, the feeling of guilt derives from the illusion of responsibility, as a medium, an empathic process that focus your learning and that keeps you in tune with your group...things like guilt and blame very much work like pain does, they prompt you to immediate action, in the case, in social related problems...as many other things, guilt is an evolutionary tool which proved successful in social species..so when I say it works upon a concept, a convenient vision of the world, its because you cannot feel guilty without having a perception in the first place...guilt arise when there is a balancing conflict between empathic moral awareness and personnel urges and needs that require attending to which you have or are about to give way...whether you could truly have done otherwise, need I remind you its a retrospective judgement, is far from being settled, in fact currently, there is a great load of investigation suggesting just the opposite...so your trivial boring discourse on accountability, taking responsibility and suck it up, is totally depending on whether free will makes sense...naturally it doesn't require a genius to understand that Institutions like the State, the Justice system, as our vision of ethical and moral adequate responses will have to progressively adapt their methodology to the development done on this regard, and this independently on whether you like it , believe it, or deem it more or less practical...

Justice is a concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, equity or fairness, as well as the administration of the law, taking into account the inalienable and inborn rights of all human beings and citizens, the right of all people and individuals to equal protection before the law of their civil rights, without discrimination on the basis of race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, color, ethnicity, religion, disability
, age, or other characteristics

Like the title reads "What does justice mean to you?"

For starters, it means that the shit4brains people trying to railroad George Zimmerman for defending himself should be punished in some fashion.

I don't think much about the philosophical meaning of justice, but I react strongly to what I almost reflexively and effortlessly consider to be injustice. I suspect that's the case with most of us.

I celebrate the fact that eventually I and all my fellow human beings will find absolute peace...the peace preceding our birth. The spirit of civil conversation consists in building on another's observation, not overturning it.