How can we be sure that all religions are wrong?

@catbeasy,

This might be the problem.

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I found myself reading

You said that in one form or another 7 times.

That's not how to find him. He's not in a book.

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@Leadfoot,

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That's not how to find him. He's not in a book.

How would we know if someone believes in a God if they were not to tell us or if we read about their belief in a book?

Do you belong to a religion that does not have written history about your God?

How would we even know what a God was unless someone else told us?

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@reasoning logic,

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How would we know if someone believes in a God if they were not to tell us or if we read about their belief in a book?

Are you not aware that I have been telling you about my belief? Or do I not qualify as 'someone'..

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Do you belong to a religion that does not have written history about your God?

No, to one degree or another, every religion I've encountered has been wrong. They, as the bible says, "have a form of Godliness but deny the power there of".
People find God in any number of ways. I found him by looking by myself, which is really the only way it can be done but the path he may have you follow will be as individual as you are.

That much of what I found or was shown matches things in the bible is either coincidence or God had a hand in making sure the basics were in there. I think it's the latter. He will personally lead you to the rest of what you need if you ask for it.

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How would we even know what a God was unless someone else told us?

For me, a God was the only place I could possibly go with the questions I had about life. I didn't know for certain that there was one, but when he answered my questions it was obvious he existed. I can only give rough ideas about him, his nature is beyond my descriptive abilities.

If you have all the answers you need or want about life, you have no need of a God.

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@Leadfoot,

With all due respect, clearly this is not true. You would not have the same beliefs had you come from another country. Clearly you would not have the same beliefs without the passing down of knowledge, from other humans whether written or oral. We cannot know what that would be, but to deny this, just seems a bit much..

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Are you not aware that I have been telling you about my belief? Or do I not qualify as 'someone'..

This has to have its origins. We cannot know what they are, but from simple observation, we can know that statistically most take on the Gods of their nation. This is not random. It may be thought out, but not without that base of information passed down..

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@catbeasy,

Most take on the gods of the parents.

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@Leadfoot,

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That's not how to find him. He's not in a book.

This is a bit disingenuous. Obviously, books are not the only source of knowledge. Also, if you read my post a bit closer, the reading wasn't to find truth, it was simply for the enjoyment of reading how human knowledge has progressed..

So, let me also disabuse you of the possibility that this 'might' be the problem.

Even were I to read to discover truths, I don't just read. I live, I explore. I test, myself against the world, against others and note the results. I use others knowledge for comparison to my own experience and note the similarities and differences. I suspect many do this to varying degrees and that most do not simply take what they read and believe it regardless of their own personal experiences. Those who do that are called fundamentalist and my guess is, religiously fundamentalist. I have friends like this..

In fact this personal process led by listening to my own internal 'divinings' (as it were) is what led to my rejection of things I used to believe were true!

But more to the point, what is in a book except a recording of peoples experiences? To say 'something' is not found in a book is to make a ton of assumptions about a person's mindset in reading and for reading any particular account of others' experiences.

And more to that point, surely though, the Christian God is found in a book. No one stumbles across Jesus from meditation. There is very little that one can find that resembles the Christian God without knowing the Bible. And the things that do resemble are miles away from Christian doctrine and what it takes to be a Christian (the belief in Jesus!)..

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@catbeasy,

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He's (god) not in a book.

That's the best laugh I've had for today about god; all week.

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@catbeasy,

Leadfoot Quote:

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Leadfoot quote:
"Are you not aware that I have been telling you about my belief? Or do I not qualify as 'someone'.."

catbeasy replied:
This has to have its origins. We cannot know what they are, but from simple observation, we can know that statistically most take on the Gods of their nation. This is not random. It may be thought out, but not without that base of information passed down..

I guess this is an appeal to ad populum or statistics.

You ignore the possibility that the truth may be in outliers of the bell curve.

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catbeasy quote:
With all due respect, clearly this is not true. You would not have the same beliefs had you come from another country. Clearly you would not have the same beliefs without the passing down of knowledge, from other humans whether written or oral. We cannot know what that would be, but to deny this, just seems a bit much..

I assume that was in responce to my claim of having come to know God independently of the bible, family, church, etc.

You did it 'respectfully' but it still amounts to calling me either delusional or a liar. No offense, but that approach pretty much ends the possibility of discussion.

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@Leadfoot,

I apologize if I offended you, it was not my intent as I do not believe you are delusional or liar. We all misunderstand where much of our belief and behaviour comes from, myself included. If there's one thing I think, its that you are a pretty honest person, but perhaps you don't read so carefully sometimes..! But then again, neither do I..

My point is that it is impossible to extract learning from being a child from what you believe when you begin the process of formulating your beliefs. Very complex process and poorly understand at any granular level.

In other words, you cannot say with authority that you learned God independently. This is not a criticism of you and the way you learn, I think it is true of all of us.

And no, I don't ignore the possibility of the truth being in the outliers as you say. I've said this before, you could be right. You just can't defend your correctness as you are doing. The way I see it, you can only say that you believe such and such, but cannot prove it and also, logically speaking, you must accept the possibility that it comes not just from your learning/upbringing, but also as a product of your genes, the very structure of your brain, the nature of conscious reflection and human use of symbols.

Its possible we may be primed to believe in God due to our apparent unique consciousness and our use of language. Reification is inevitable and I believe that involves supernatural things.

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@catbeasy,

Good post.

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@catbeasy,

Quote:

Quote from catbeasy:
My point is that it is impossible to extract learning from being a child from what you believe when you begin the process of formulating your beliefs. Very complex process and poorly understand at any granular level.

In other words, you cannot say with authority that you learned God independently. This is not a criticism of you and the way you learn, I think it is true of all of us.

Thank you for your clarification.

We all form our ideas of what is credible from our own experiences. But I think you have limited the range of possible experiences, even the ordinary, non-supernatural experiences possible to humans.

My early experiences were definitely at the outlier end of the spectrum. They were not especially bad or stressful in the conventional sense. I would describe it as benign neglect. I suffered no physical or emotional abuse, it was simply an unusual level of social isolation. I can't remember ever having a conversation with either of my parents until I was in my teens. My first exposure to other children was at age 6 when I went to first grade. For me, It was like being a Martian dropped onto another planet, I didn't know how to relate to the teachers or the kids. I'm still faking it to some degree.

That upbringing had its down sides but it was one where the bias and 'noise level' of society was low enough that made it possible to more clearly 'hear' the 'supernatural' that many people (including you) say that they believe exists.

Behavioral scientists would explain it as just an artifact of isolation or imagination, etc., I get that. I don't expect you to over ride your own experience and believe anything based on my account. I only encourage others to listen more carefully to what that vaguely sensed 'supernatural' has to say. It is far more interesting than I or anyone else could have imagined.

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@Leadfoot,

Cool..Thanks for sharing. Sounds like a tough way to grow up..

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'supernatural' that many people (including you) say that they believe exists.

I don't think I ever said that. In fact, I don't know what supernatural means to say that I do or don't believe in it..I believe the present reality that most of us agree on is enough. It is weird, 'magical', wondrous, all without my ever thinking there is more than what we call 'physical' or 'energy' and the things that apparently stem from energy: things like purpose, desire, sensation - in a word, feelings. Those, at some level, are unknowable. But no more so, at root, than a rock.

And I'm not trying to be coy about it or purposely vague. I'm just being honest in saying I don't know.

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to more clearly 'hear' the 'supernatural'

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Behavioral scientists would explain it as just an artifact of isolation or imagination

Here's where I think the rubber hits the road. Although 'imagination' is a bit inchoate. I would say, again, that what you are experiencing is a side of our psychology, a part of humans, that is a product of our language and conscious reflection coupled with a lot of social psychology.

From that point of view, perhaps a scientific point of view, it is poorly understood. But that is how I would think of it. You and other more spiritual people are tapping into a side of humanity that much of our western world has shut off; I include myself in that western world, although I was religious in that sense at one point so I 'get it'. Now, I think of myself as having spiritual value, but in a completely different sense than yourself and others..at least psychologically, but the root of it is similar..

So, I don't have an issue with people exploring their humanity through spiritual avenues. Its probably how we evolved, maybe has more 'truth' to it than more intellectual avenues. A whole other conversation.

But that doesn't mean that there is, in fact, a 'real' God behind any of it. At least not real in the sense that we want to give it reality. Especially that reality which organized religion want to give it. There is also the distinct possibility that 'we' and this known universe, may be all there is. I don't have a problem with that, its just one possibility..

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@catbeasy,

The evolution of ones worldview is one that has always intrigued me. I often liken it the building of ones home. When you need shelter, you build your home from your immediate resources. as you explore further afield, you find better and stronger resources from which to gather your building materials and build a stronger, better home

Our first world view, like a home, is the one that is given us and moulded by our upbringing and cultural background, but beyond that, it is our responsibility to test it for fortitude and replace it if necessary, building it up out of all the knowledge we acquire. There are times when two apparently equally strong world views are before us and we opt for one over the other, with emotion and preconceived bias usually playing a part in our decisions. Sometimes people choose their world view based on its furnishings and nostalgia, and think little about fortitude or foundation.

There is little to nothing in this world that we can truly know, so we all are working a best guess scenario, we could and plausibly are all wrong about some or all of what we believe. I for instance am not the sharpest tool in the box, but I am certainly a trier, and am always learning. Acknowledging this fact, everything I just said could be moot Smile

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@Smileyrius,

I agree, very well put!

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@catbeasy,

He did do a very good job explaining.
I have shared this video with others before, I personally think it was probably put together by someone who has a great mind like yours. Idea

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@Smileyrius,

There's a simple answer; treat everyone with respect and dignity. All religions are not wrong. Many learn to treat others with "brotherly love." As with anything in life, there are always exceptions. When looking at the "big" picture about religions, they are mostly positive.
I'm an atheist, but I like Buddhism the most, because they teach for the individual to improve themselves to be better humans.

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@catbeasy,

Quote:

catbeasy wrote:
Reification is inevitable and I believe that involves supernatural things.

I guess it was this that led me to think you believed in some kind of supernatural. If you think they are 'involved' then they/it must exist.

But in view of your later statements, I assume you must mean the supernatural only exists in the imagination.

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@cicerone imposter,

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All religions are not wrong.

Not even a religion that flies airliners into buildings?

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@High Strangeness,

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Not even a religion that flies airliners into buildings?

Do you know of a religion that teaches this to their followers?

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@reasoning logic,

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[Re flying airliners into buildings]- Do you know of a religion that teaches this to their followers?

Here ya go.. Wink

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(Koran 9.123)- "O you who believe! fight those of the infidels who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard against evil"
(Koran 5.51)-"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends."

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How can we be sure that all religions are wrong?

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