17
   

Beyond tribalism; How well does your religious label serve you?

 
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2013 08:13 pm
@chai2,
Psst...
Chai2=cat person
Spread the word. Wink

Laughing http://able2know.org/topic/208350-1
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 06:37 am
@IRFRANK,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5280822)
Fine, and if it results in benefit, what's wrong with that? Being good has benefits, what a concept.


Nothing wrong with it at all, Frank. I am merely suggesting that it can reasonably be argued that even what we term "altruistic motives"...are aimed at self-satisfaction.

I guess even a sadist can provide "good" to a masochist. (Now that is a concept...although I guess a sadist would have to be nice to a masochist in order to torture him.)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 06:38 am
@MattDavis,
Quote:

Perhaps I'm not communicating well.
My intended message was that communicating requires labels in the sense that all words are labels. A word is a label for some "thing", that thing may be an object or a characteristic or even something more abstract.
The meaning of a word is defined by the community.
You and I probably agree the word "red" means this color: ####
We might not agree what the word "Christian" means, however.
Perhaps I define it as someone who 'accepts Jesus as their personal lord and savior'.
Perhaps you define it as someone who 'follows the teachings of Jesus'.
Someone else might define it as someone who 'was baptized into the Church'.
There are many other possible definitions of course.
The point being that there are communication problems, if labels do not have an agreed upon meaning. I might be chunking together people in the Christian label ignoring perhaps significant differences.


Quite so. And one of the reasons I have been abandoning the "agnostic" label in favor of describing my position. (Takes lots of extra words to do that, though!)
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 07:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I guess even a sadist can provide "good" to a masochist. (Now that is a concept...although I guess a sadist would have to be nice to a masochist in order to torture him.)


Are you bringing up our friend Hawkeye?........ Drunk
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 09:09 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Nothing wrong with it at all, Frank. I am merely suggesting that it can reasonably be argued that even what we term "altruistic motives"...are aimed at self-satisfaction.

I think we agreed on that.

Quote:
I guess even a sadist can provide "good" to a masochist. (Now that is a concept...although I guess a sadist would have to be nice to a masochist in order to torture him.)


Now that you mention that, I may need to evaluate my own behavior. Shocked
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 09:17 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Nothing wrong with it at all, Frank. I am merely suggesting that it can reasonably be argued that even what we term "altruistic motives"...are aimed at self-satisfaction.

Ayn Rand attempted to make that case, she termed it objectivism.
Her popular book on the subject: The Virtue of Selfishness (free PDF download)
Speaking of iconoclasts. Wink
Ayn and I don't generally get along. Maybe I'm an iconoclastist?
0 Replies
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 10:00 am
@IRFRANK,
IRFrank wrote:
And to your original point, what role will religion play?

I listened to a short (15 minute) podcast last night before bed. I think it gets at this question pretty well.
[podcast]Don Cupitt; Non-realism about God
Don Cupitt is a contemporary theologian (Catholic background).
He discusses the social utility of religion, and the personification of ideals into "God". He also discusses the sociological dangers of legalism and fundamentalism.

His position is not (from my view) substantively different than that of atheist Western philosopher Alain de Botton. [podcast]Atheism 2.0

Also not fundamentally different than Eastern (Buddhist/Hinduist) philosopher Keith Ward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSr91_G3T6I

Originals at: www.philosophybites.com
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 10:03 am
I am always bemused by people who are devotées of Ayn Rand. (I'm not saying anyone here is.) Her constant drum beat is that people should think for themselves. Those who borrow their beliefs from Miss Rand are violating that basic dictum.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 10:34 am
@Setanta,
My greatest trouble with her is the elitist streak throughout her body of work.
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 04:08 pm
@MattDavis,
Quote:
I am vegan,
I'm German but not sure I should be proud of it

Sorry Matt, couldn't resist

Quote:
…. meats he serves are from Halal butchers…...one of the most barbaric and reprehensible practices.
How so

Quote:
I did become vegan for ethical reasons, primarily because animals are capable of suffering, so I should not participate in perpetuating that suffering.
Certainly not in outright torture

Quote:
…... often brings the accusation "you love animals more than people"……..
On the whole they probably better deserve love than we

Quote:
…..Veganism…….Saving a 90 to 99% loss in calories by "filtering" those calories through an animal.
Does seem wasteful doesn't it

Quote:
Other considerations as well. Fresh water.
Indeed, just read this morning Columbia River drying up

Quote:
Nutritionally I have found no negatives so long as B12 is supplemented……...Vegan men also have higher testosterone levels (perhaps explaining my aggressive nature )
I had noticed some improvement in certain areas since including fruits and veggies with breakfast

Quote:
That is as much vegangelizing as I intend to do on the subject, at least here on this thread
It's okay Matt anytime

ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 07:09 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
good documentary podcast on Spinoza

http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/11/21/spinoza/

Quote:
Spinoza did not believe that God created the heavens and earth - the universe. For Spinoza, God was equivalent to all of nature. He believed that "false religion" created superstition. A "true religion," on the other hand, was liberating because it allowed freedom of thought.

The Europe of 17th century was a place of stifling religious orthodoxies, strife and war. Spinoza believed in freedom of thought and the principle of religious tolerance.

Spinoza also had radical ideas about the nature of politics. He believed in democracy. He is credited with helping to shape the revolution in human thought known as The Enlightenment.

This program is an introduction to Spinoza's life and thought. It features three Spinoza scholars:

Steven Nadler, The William H. Hay II professor of philosophy at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. His books include Spinoza: A Life, and A Book Forged in Hell: Spinoza's Scandalous Treatise and The Birth of the Secular Age. A list of his books and publications are available on his website.

Beth Lord, Principal Investigator for the AHRC Spinoza Research Network. University of Dundee, Scotland Author of Spinoza's Ethics: An Edinburgh Philosophical Guide.

Susan James, professor, Department of Philosophy, Birkbeck College, University of London. Author of Spinoza on Philosophy, Religion, and Politics:The Theologico-Political Treatise.



it's an interesting hour


There is generally very good programming available through Ideas.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 07:31 pm
@ehBeth,
Thank's ehBeth. Very Happy
Does the documentary cover much his relationship with Liebniz?
I read The Courtier and the Heretic a few years ago.
Spinoza come off as much more of the "good guy" in that depiction.
Leibniz seemed pretty cut throat and a wee bit dishonest.
0 Replies
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 07:43 pm
@dalehileman,
Thanks Dale. Very Happy
Halal is "ritualized" sacrifice, the same bleeding out process that you earlier described with pigs, but of course with cows/lambs/goats instead. Prayers are said during the process which are alleged to calm the animal.
Hope all is well with you.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 10:07 pm
@MattDavis,
Quote:
Do you feel like your beliefs place you in a group?

Yes...

Quote:
Is your group label helping or hurting you?

I think that any label will hurt someone, somehow, someway...as it sets up all kinds of boundaries, and biases...etc...that never really represent the person for who they actually are...but I do see the importance of being truthful, no matter what that holds, even if people wish to act hateful...etc...because if someone else wants to learn, or change their ways...then at least they have an idea of who you are...

Quote:
Does the label help or hurt your group?

Just like atheism, you would have to ask each individual of each group if they think it does, or does not...because all of them make each group what it currently is...and no single person's views are indicative of what that one main principle may be...Even if they all say they agree on one main thing, or they do not...

Example: Even if an atheist claims that atheism is not about beliefs, it does not mean that all atheists feel this way...So it must mean that both atheists believe one way or another...and have reasons why they do...and one must not be telling the truth, or not understand this...but it does not mean it is incorrect...because they believe it...
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2013 10:14 pm
@MattDavis,
Quote:
I did become vegan for ethical reasons, primarily because animals are capable of suffering, so I should not participate in perpetuating that suffering. Attempting to live while causing the least harm.


That's a very noble personal philosophy, Matt, and I commend you for it. No matter the size of your shoe, one's footprint should be as tiny as is possible.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all do something similar for the people in the world who are suffering immensely because of the predacious nature of many western imperialist countries?

Quote:

THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:

part II

CIA COVERT OPERATIONS IN CENTRAL AMERICA, CIA MANIPULATION OF THE PRESS, CIA EXPERIMENTATION ON THE U.S. PUBLIC

by John Stockwell

a lecture given in October, 1987

...

I don't mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.

This is nobody's propaganda. There have been over 100,000 American witnesses for peace who have gone down there and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they've happened, and documented 13,000 people killed this way, mostly women and children. These are the activities done by these contras. The contras are the people president Reagan calls `freedom fighters'. He says they're the moral equivalent of our founding fathers. And the whole world gasps at this confession of his family traditions.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Mar, 2013 01:34 am
@MattDavis,
Halal simply means "permitted." In the case of food, it means food which a Muslim is permitted to eat. There is no one, certain method of ritual slaughter which can said to be universally recognized.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Mar, 2013 06:11 am
@Setanta,
Thanks Setanta. Yes, what I described is one aspect of Halal that of Dhabihah. Dhabihah being the method of slaughter. In restaurants you will often see advertised "Halal meats". The rapid slicing open of the neck followed by exsanguination is the method by which those animals died.
Stunning the animal beforehand is not permitted. The animal must be fully conscious and of course alive when the bleeding out process is begun.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Mar, 2013 06:22 am
@MattDavis,
The same is true for "Kosher meats", with regards to slaughter.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Mar, 2013 08:28 am
@dalehileman,


Quote:
In short, being Vegan just makes you better than everyone else.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Mar, 2013 08:34 am
@maxdancona,
Not better, just magical. Laughing
 

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