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Beyond tribalism; How well does your religious label serve you?

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 05:20 pm
@maxdancona,
Being religious or not does not determine how we feel about most of what you stated anyway.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 05:22 pm
@edgarblythe,
Really Edgar? You are saying that minorities don't share the same core values of liberty and equality that White Americans do? I don't know any Vietnamese Americans, but I can say confidently that Black Americans and Mexican Americans value freedom and equality etc. etc.


BillRM
 
  3  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 05:23 pm
@MattDavis,
On forms the word NONE in the space for religious believes does nicely for me as neither Atheist or Agnostic is a religion.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 05:24 pm
@edgarblythe,
Depending on the definition of religion. The core values of America (which we all accept) that people should be free and that all people are equal are religious in the sense that we accept them on faith.

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 05:29 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5278702)
You don't agree with the definition?

I would be interested in hearing your definitions of religion and faith.


I said I did not agree with the definition given of faith.

In my opinion:

Faith, in the religious context, is inappropriately and illogically INSISTING that a guess about the unknown is correct…and suggesting even more inappropriately and illogically that doing so is both edifying and virtuous.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 05:41 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
...but I can say confidently that Black Americans and Mexican Americans value freedom and equality etc. etc.

It seems clear (to me) that Edgar was pointing out that those qualities are not exclusive to a particular religion.
I agree with Edgar on that point. I would also add...
...they are not exclusive to a racially labeled group either.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 06:20 pm
@maxdancona,
I misread one of your statements. I didn't connect to the fact you were comparing modern Americans to a culture of the past. I understood it as comparing Americans to present other culture.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 06:21 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Depending on the definition of religion. The core values of America (which we all accept) that people should be free and that all people are equal are religious in the sense that we accept them on faith.



In your opinion.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 07:43 pm
value liberty and equality, that you consider slavery a grave evil have a fear and disdain for dictatorships and think that hitting your wife is a bad thing

A sizable number of Americans would disagree with you on these points, if only covertly.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 07:54 pm
@Frank Apisa,
At least you agree that you can have faith in something other than a God, right? The point is that you can be an atheist and still be religious. It is the "insistence" on holding on to something unproveable that makes it religion not the details of what you are holding on to.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 08:10 pm
@jespah,
That's funny Jes, I never assumed any of those things about you, or any other Jew.

What's mandlebrot? The only mandlebrot I know about is a mandlebrot set, which is really cool.

To be honest, something I mostly assume about Jews is that they are not particularly religious. Whether true or not I don't know.


Interesting topic Matt, I've been thinking about things like this lately, but I'm too tired to get into it now.
I'll be back.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 08:16 pm
I voted your post up, jes.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 08:23 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
...
What's mandlebrot? ...


http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/1221142043691.jpg

My mother makes them every Passover and they are epic.

Recipe.

Gracias, Edgar. chai, thanks for not assuming (I know not everybody does). As for how religious any of us are, your mileage varies. My brother is rather religious (he was Treasurer of his synagogue and all that). We grew up in a kosher home, and went to services fairly regularly. I had just kinda had enough when I'd gotten older.
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  3  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 08:58 pm
This is a good question. I think the need to belong is very strong in humans. We are definitely pack animals. I think a lot of folks are in their church for that reason and social reasons as well. I also think that pack mentality leads to very bad behavior. For that reason I am very skeptical of 'group think'. That said I do claim to be a Buddhist. I simply believe in the dharma. I don't think the belonging part is that much of a draw for me, although I do enjoy the companionship sometimes. Studying together is much more productive than trying to do it alone. There are teachers with a lot of knowledge to impart. I do think the social benefits keep a lot of people going to church. The pack doesn't have to be bad but some of the worst atrocities have been done in the name of religion. Like I often say, our survival instincts drive our behavior more than we want to admit.

A good question is, what would replace the church for social behavior for atheists or agnostics?. Don't they have the same social needs? Golf?
IRFRANK
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 09:18 pm
I don't usually mention my beliefs,unless ask. If I am with a group I stay quiet if it comes up. If people start to pray, I either walk away or think of a Buddhist prayer. Does it help or hurt me? The teaching helps me, but belonging to the groups makes no difference. Does it help or hurt the group? Neither. Caring about that is participating in samsara, which should be avoided. I've expressed more about my beliefs here than almost anywhere else, except in our group.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 09:45 pm
@IRFRANK,
Thank you Frank that was well said.
I also think this is a great question:
IRFrank wrote:
A good question is, what would replace the church for social behavior for atheists or agnostics?. Don't they have the same social needs?
I like to exercise my social needs with friends and family, but admittedly that can be a very close group. It may not aid in identifying myself in the larger community. I have a yoga practice, but that is primarily physical for me. There isn't too much socializing.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 09:49 pm
This atheist may have social needs, but not as part of a herd.
MattDavis
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Mar, 2013 10:20 pm
@edgarblythe,
In my limited experience, getting atheists to agree on much, is a bit like herding cats.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Mar, 2013 03:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
The words "agnostic" and "atheistic" just seem to generate heat...


Maybe in America, but not over here.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Mar, 2013 03:39 am
@izzythepush,
What does generate heat in Britain (currently)?
 

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