saab
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2013 10:36 am
Just talked to the hunter. He has never heard about bears being fed.
He was very much against it ´. Also for icebears.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2013 10:42 am
Well, i'm just going by what the man interviewed on the radio program said. He said that bears are fed in Europe, and he particularly mentioned Poland.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2013 10:50 am
@farmerman,
It is possible, too, that another bear species could adapt, evolve and fill the niche which will have arisen in the northern reaches of the continent. At about 20,000 years ago, as the last ice age was ending, the short-faced bear was the dominant ursine species. Brown bears and black bears replaced them because they were better adapted to arboreal environments, and did not rely heavily on large animal predation. I believe it is correct to say that the short-faced bear had backed into an evolutionary cul-de-sac.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2013 12:16 pm
@Setanta,
or a blind canyon. Arctodus was a separate genus of huge "running bears" (maybe thats where the song came from). I recall the title of Arctodus species as "Kleptoparasite"< meansing that they were so biig and their bones werent put together for ducking and turning while chasing prey so they took the next best strategy of intimidating other smaller predators and just bullying their catches away from them.

I saw a talk on evolving predation strategies of living animals and there is evidence in Arctic Scandanavia that some polar bears have hunted cooperatively to take down big things like walrus adults(usually a bad idea for a single polar bear)
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2013 12:16 pm
@Setanta,
or a blind canyon. Arctodus was a separate genus of huge "running bears" (maybe thats where the song came from). I recall the title of Arctodus species as "Kleptoparasite"< meansing that they were so biig and their bones werent put together for ducking and turning while chasing prey so they took the next best strategy of intimidating other smaller predators and just bullying their catches away from them.

I saw a talk on evolving predation strategies of living animals and there is evidence in Arctic Scandanavia that some polar bears have hunted cooperatively to take down big things like walrus adults(usually a bad idea for a single polar bear)
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2013 10:46 pm
@Falco,
Falco wrote:

Using the very best of today's available carbon source, such as oil, and advanced manufacturing technology, it is very easy to produce enough plastic to cover large swaths of the Arctic sea. After all, plastic floats, it's durable (as evident by all plastic bags surviving for decades and more in the sea), can be made in a suitable ice-looking color, could be made with holes for that refreshing morning dip and can be made strong enough at relatively limited thickness to take a whole family of polar bears as well as for seals to give birth to their cubs during spring. Could this be a solution!? ;-D


Very droll.

But...it solves so many problems all at once!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 02:04 am
@farmerman,
So, essentially, adapting to fill their current niche under the new conditions imposed.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 04:08 am
@Setanta,
thats a good way of putting it. The present niche "under new ircumstances" morphs into anew niche and a
new bear"then

I always wondered what a hippo looked like in its previous land based life. They are now a "facultative" riverine animal tat may become a full time riverine animal.

Would poar bears become marine or land based animals were the ice sheet to disappear?

Maybe there wouldrise two conemporaneous subpopulations and ultimately two subspecies. A lot of it is luck based too. If the animals cant adapt quickly enough, they die and become extinct. Yet the foundation population f brown bears still remains.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 04:45 am
@farmerman,
I was thinking of the brown bears as i read your post. If the maritime bears successfully adapt, as you say, on if by land and one if by sea (to warp an expression), then we'd see three species, or subspecies, of the brown bear.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 04:54 am
@Setanta,
we sorta do. Brownies are descended from grizzlies an the "Lower 40 grizzlies" have a range that extends to Alaska wherein the edaphic effects take over and a smaller version "the barren ground grizzly" exists. Kodiaks, Brownies grizzlies, an Polar bears represent the hillbilly family tree of Northern bears and another one in the areas of Arctic Scandanavia and Russia exists but I forgot its common nme.

Polar bears are sort of end members of the Ursus horribilis clan
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 05:08 am
@farmerman,
CORRECTION> I fucked up.

The genera is URSUS, the species is arctos all the rest are subspecies or variety names.
ALL brownies are Ursus arctos (then horribilis etc)

The other subspecies was (or IS) Ursus arctos lasiotus


You can see from its name its a native of the Kiril , Sacheline, and Ussuri areas and was considered to be the first sprout off the common ancestor of them all. (Or it could be THE common ancestor and is only hanging on as the other bears take over -like the Neanderthals just "fading away" )
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 05:13 am
Bears and pigs have a common ancestor, do they not? Both ill-tempered and dangerous creatures.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 05:15 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
WIKIPEDIA (so use it lightly) This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.
Subspecies name
Ursus arctos arctos – Eurasian brown bear Europe, Caucasus, Siberia (except the east) and Mongolia[15] A predominantly dark colored (rarely light colored), moderately sized subspecies with dark claws, the Eurasian browns occurring in Siberia are larger than their European counterparts, as they are hunted less.[15] Where found in Europe, primarily a forest creature

Ursus arctos alascensis[16] Alaska

Ursus arctos beringianus – Kamchatka brown bear (or Far Eastern brown bear) Kamchatka Peninsula and Paramushir Island[15] This is a very large, dark colored form. Light colored forms are encountered less than in European-Siberian subspecies. The claws are dark;[15] it is thought to be the ancestor of U. a. middendorffi.[10]

Ursus arctos californicus – California golden bear (extinct) California The last known bear was shot in California in 1922.

Ursus arctos collaris – East Siberian brown bear East Siberia from the Yenisei River to the Altai Mountains, also found in northern Mongolia A predominantly dark form, it is intermediate in size between U. a. arctos and U. a. beringianus, with a proportionately larger skull.[15]

Ursus arctos crowtheri – Atlas bear (extinct) Habit while still extant was the Atlas Mountains and adjacent areas in North Africa, from Morocco to Libya. Last surviving bear is thought to have been killed by hunters in the 1870s.


Ursus arctos dalli
Ursus arctos gyas – Peninsular brown bear Coastal Alaska


Ursus arctos horribilis – Grizzly bear Western Canada, Alaska, and the northwestern United States, historically existed in Great Plains Grizzlies are identified by a medium to dark brown coat with gray, or "grizzled" tips on the fur. Smaller than the coastal bear, a large male grizzly can weigh up to 364 kilograms (800 lb) in inland areas, with bears in the Yukon region weighing as little as 80 kg (180 lb). Coastal bears may be nearly twice a mountain grizzly's weight. Highly adaptable: can live in montane pine forests, temperate rainforest, arid scrubland, and prairie.

Ursus arctos isabellinus – Himalayan brown bear Nepal, Pakistan, and Northern India Having a reddish-brown or sandy coat color, this bear is smaller than most other brown bears found on the Asian continent.

Ursus arctos lasiotus – Ussuri brown bear (or Amur brown bear, black grizzly or horse bear) Russia: Southern Kuril Islands, Sakhalin, Maritime territory, and the Ussuri/Amur river region south of the Stanovoy Range, China: Heilongjiang, Japan: Hokkaidō[15] This bear is thought to be the ancestor of U. a. horribilis.[10]

Ursus arctos middendorffi – Kodiak bear Kodiak, Afognak, Shuyak Islands (Alaska) This is the largest subspecies of brown bear, with other coastal brown bears potentially reaching nearly as large.
Ursus arctos nelsoni – Mexican grizzly bear (extinct) Formerly northern Mexico, including Chihuahua, Coahuila, and Sonora, southwestern United States including southern ranges of Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico This bear is believed extinct due to cattle ranching in both the United States and Mexico. Distinct in its ability to survive arid conditions, it could live in both montane pine forests of Mexico and canyonlands of Sonoran Desert.

Ursus arctos pruinosus – Tibetan blue bear Tibetan plateau [15] This is a moderately sized subspecies with long and shaggy fur. Both dark and light variants are encountered, with intermediate colors predominating. The fur around the neck is light, and forms a "collar". The skull is distinguished its relatively flattened choanae, an arch-like curve of the molar row and large teeth.[15]
Ursus arctos sitkensis Baranof Island Appearing to be more closely related to the polar bear than to other brown bears,[13] this species is called "clade I" by Waits, and others, and is part of the subspecies identified as U. a. sitkensis, by Hall and as U. a. dalli by Kurtén.

Ursus arctos stikeenensis

Ursus arctos syriacus – Syrian brown bear Found in the trans-Caucasus, Syria, Iraq,Turkey (Asia Minor), Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, western Himalayas and the Pamir-Alai and Tien Shan mountains,[15] probable historical presence in Israel The Syrian is a light colored, moderate to small-sized subspecies with light claws.[15] Recently, however, it was shown that this form, at least matrilineally, is not monophyletic and belongs to Ursus arctos arctos[17]

Ursus arctos marsicanus – Marsican brown bear (not officially recognised) Marsica, central Italy There are an estimated 30 to 40 bears remaining in the Marsica area.

Hybrids


from Wikipedia-search term Ursus Arctos)
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 05:19 am
@Setanta,
no, bears are a branch from canids I think. We often use the term "SOW and BOAR" when talking about bears but I dint think they are related
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 05:45 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
I always wondered what a hippo looked like in its previous land based life. They are now a "facultative" riverine animal tat may become a full time riverine animal.

Anthracotheria
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Anthracotherium10.jpg/799px-Anthracotherium10.jpg
http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/New4EverEden/Prehistoric%20Mammals/Hippopotamiidae%20and%20Anthracotheres/Elomeryx.jpg
Wiki wrote:
Anthracotheriidae is a family of extinct, hippopotamus-like artiodactyl ungulates related to hippopotamuses and whales. The oldest genus, Elomeryx, first appeared during the Middle Eocene in Asia. They thrived in Africa and Eurasia, with a few species ultimately entering North America during the Oligocene. They died out in Europe and Africa during the Miocene, possibly due to a combination of climatic changes and competition with other artiodactyls, including pigs and true hippopotami.[3] The youngest genus, Merycopotamus, died out in Asia during the late Pliocene. The family is named after the first genus discovered, Anthracotherium, which means "coal beast," as the first fossils of it were found in Paleogene-aged coal beds in France. Fossil remains of the anthracothere genus were discovered by the Harvard University and Geological Survey of Pakistan joint research project (Y-GSP) in the well-dated Middle and Late Miocene deposits of the Pothohar Plateau in northern Pakistan.[4]
In life, the average anthracothere would have resembled a skinny hippopotamus with a comparatively small, narrow head and most likely pig-like in general appearance.[5] They had four or five toes on each foot, and broad feet suited to walking on soft mud. They had a full set of approximately 44 teeth with five semi-crescentric cusps on the upper molars,[3] which, in some species, were adapted for digging up the roots of aquatic plants.[6]

Elomeryx
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Grhi69dUuh0/T7zbFD5ttcI/AAAAAAAAFCM/SkT9aK_k7vY/s400/elomeryx.JPG
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 06:35 am
OK, i just looked at a phylogenetic tree. Bears and pigs are not closely related. However, bears are not descended from canids--rather, they both have a relatively recent common ancestor, for the phylum caniformia.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 02:28 pm
@rosborne979,
thanks. Ive always suspected that hippos have been caught in the middle of a recent evolutional changeover. They look so damned "committee designed"
0 Replies
 
Falco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 12:07 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
One of the reasons i think it is a mistake to attempt to intervene is that it's not just a case of feeding the polar bears--when their environment changes, it changes for every other species who live there, too.

Well this complex issue revolves around who points the finger where for the the current warming trends. I would think that if we were so worried about interdependence of species, we would have been more "green" in our developments and encourage environment green policies early on, keeping in mind the interdependence between the environment and our development.
The comparison of the past is good, but all it shows is a contrast showing that there wasn't a problem of declining sea ice levels.
Currently there is a precipitous drop in Arctic sea-ice levels year after year. One can hope that there are sufficient ice floes left further up north that is sufficient for the polar bear population to survive on, and global warming doesn't impact Arctic sea ice very intensely in the coming years. If we are to blame, then I would hope that we take responsibility and possibly try to intervene beneficially.
But since seeing your convictions on the matter, am I correct in assuming that you currently hold the belief that we humans don't have a large role in the current trends indicating a global warming?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 02:31 am
@Falco,
Your rant about "green" policy is a non-starter, because even if humans were responsible for climate change, that doesn't alter that dealing with the effects is a lot more complex than just running up to the Arctic circle with a truck load of Purina Bear Chow. However, no, i don't know of any unambiguous evidence that climate change is anthropogenic. The geologic, archaeological and historical evidence is that changes as extreme and more extreme have taken place quite recently.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 03:08 am
@Setanta,
Maybe it's time to quit wasting time and money trying to pin down the causes and start trying to deal with the effects.
 

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