ebrown_p
Regarding your Post: 602582,
Quote:"It is wrong to compare Spain's withdrawal from Iraq with Appeasment before WWII. The situation before WWII is completely different from the mess we are in today."
Oh? How so? Did Neville Chamberlain's efforts directed towards selling the Czechs down the Nazi River work? Was this settlement enough to appease the Austrian corporal? Did this ultimately save lives? Before that in 1936 when Hitler sent just a Battalion of the German Army to probe the Rhineland (a blatant breach of the Treaty of Versailles) and the French, who possessed the largest standing army in the world at the time, did nothing. How did this passive appeasement work towards world peace or, more pointedly, the French way of life in the succeeding years?
How do the results from appeasement differ whether the force demanding such cowardice stems from Islamic Fundamentalists whose stated goal is to destroy Western Civilization or from Germanic tyrants who similarly publish their goals of world conquest? It's not rocket science; we all know the final outcome. To some, the remedy against such bullying is just too messy, inhumane, or prolonged. If we just give in a little, if we can just reason with the aggressors, if we can just get them to stop "hating" us, then all will be well. But his policy merely puts our fate in the hands of the aggressor whose stated goal is to destroy us. But, if one asks the question of just how much one wants to keep his/her way of life and how much it is valued then the question that must be asked is: "What are you willing to do?-how far will you go to preserve that which you hold so dear?" For most Americans the answer is clear and although terrorist are fond of rhetoric they make their final judgments upon actions and not words.
Quote:"Every military adventure we take into Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan means more people who lose family members and livelihoods. Purposely or not, we are giving more and more people reasons to hate us."
Some might argue if we had done this earlier 9/11 would still be only a distant dream of a largely defunct Al Qeada. These terrorists already hated us. 9/11 merely demonstrated how serious they were about destroying us.
Quote:"America's intentions don't matter. We are playing a losing game. We are making ourselves and our allies vulnerable"
Yes they do and, despite America's detractor's efforts at creating the straw man of imperialism, the U.S. intentions are noble. The game is not lost and we and our allies have always been vulnerable, not because we try to rid the world of these murderers of innocents, but because those same international felons make it their life ambition to destroy us.
Quote:"Now, if you were the Spanish people, wouldn't you want out? The Spanieard didn't make the decisions that set up this confrontation. It is almost certain the Spanish government had not cozied up with the US, they would not be a target."
This goes to the heart of my example of real "leaders". As mentioned beforehand, the "confrontation" existed previously and was largely the responsibility of the terrorist groups. If such groups did not create such a confrontation how were they to legitimatize themselves? If one must be a big fish, no matter the size of the pond, one needs a pond.
Quote:"Yes, leaving Iraq is "letting the terrorists win". But so what? Spain needs to look after her own interests. Making yourself a target for such a pricinple is matyrdom."
See the first paragraph of this post. In Addition, Spain has been a target of terrorism (ETA) longer then the U.S. I suspect they felt a kinship towards the U.S. after 9/11 and asked how they and their excellent antiterrorist resources may be of help towards its final eradication. Martyrdom is the concept of participating in an action, for the greater good, where the chances of individual survival are just about non-existent. I would argue the Spaniards were attempting to preserve their lives and way of life?-an action in opposition to Martyrdom.
Respectfully,
JM
