19
   

The Dilemma of the Believer

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 06:50 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
An atheist doesn't need to "prove" that there is no god. An atheist does not need to provide any evidence that there is no god. The proposition that gods exist is advanced by those who therefore assume the burden of proof. Frank finds it convenient to suggest that most atheists are explicit atheists, insisting that there is no god, and therefore assuming a burden of proof. Frank assumes that because it's convenient for his smug and silly epistemological position. My experience of atheists is that far and away, they are implicit atheists of "don't know, don't care, ain't important" school of thought. I've met a handful of explicit atheists in my life, i've met literally hundreds, and possibly thousands of implicit atheists. (I say possibly thousands because of the many hundreds of people i've met who complain about organized religion, but with whom i've not discussed whether or not there is a god--i don't bring it up because it doesn't interest me, and if they don't, then there it lies.) Frank's assumptions and contentions regarding atheists are merely convenient to the superior position he claims for himself, a position which exists only in his own mind.

EDIT: Addendum--there is almost no way at all to determine how many atheists there are in the world, let alone distinguish between explicit and implicit atheists. Loud-mouthed, militant, explicit atheists only seem to predominate on the squeaky wheel principle, and are alleged by those who want to shout back, touting the excellence of their own understanding.


If you mean me when you say "Frank"...I would love to see where I asserted that most atheists are "explicit" atheists. I think I have suggested many times that on the Internet, where I meet most of the atheists I know, they are almost all weak atheists. That way they do not have to defend any "beliefs" they have with regard to the non-existence of gods. Most of the atheists I meet in the non-cyber world (damn near every one of them) is a strong atheist.

Very clever leaving out the "Apisa" part in your post...or at least it is clever for someone who is not especially clever.

By the way, I enjoy when you put in all that scorn in your text, Setanta. It shows a need that provokes a laugh...even while a bit of pity comes along for the ride. I guess it is like laughing at an America's Favorite Home Video's segment where you laugh out loud at some guy getting hit in the nuts...while still feeling sorry for him. Wink Wink

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 07:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
Oh, you've said that you believe most atheists are "strong" atheists, but i'm not playing your stupid games any longer. About a year or so ago, i took the time to go find quotes of what you had posted and re-post them. You laughed and sneered, and within a few weeks, you were again denying that you'd ever said that. So i'll not be playing that sh*t again.

It's hilarious to see you say that someone is not very clever, Saint Frank. Your litany of what you know and don't know is constantly compromised on those occasions upon which you claim to know something, but never will say how you know it. You are the one with cleverness lacunae Saint Frank.

Ah yes, pity and scorn--the creed according to Saint Frank, the patron saint of internet civility. You crack me up.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 07:32 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5287640)
Oh, you've said that you believe most atheists are "strong" atheists, but i'm not playing your stupid games any longer. About a year or so ago, i took the time to go find quotes of what you had posted and re-post them.


Yup...that is the same response you give every time I ask you to back-up your assertions.

Hey...a tactic like that is good for a laugh.

In any case, I truly do pity you. Any human who does not pity someone so constantly angry, disgruntled and dismissive as you...is not much of a human. And although I acknowledge that occasionally I laugh at your horrible attitude toward life...when all is said and done, I pay a price for enjoying seeing you suffering at your own hand.

(Damn, I wish it didn't feel so satisfying when I laugh at you, though!)

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 07:44 am
@Frank Apisa,
No, it's not. I went to that trouble once, but i'll not be suckered by you again. You can pity me to your heart's content. You know nothing about me or my life. This is just another of your typical snide remarks.

Saint Frank, the patron saint of internet civility.

At least you're good for a chuckle, but not much more than that.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 08:25 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5287660)
No, it's not. I went to that trouble once, but i'll not be suckered by you again.


Yeah, so you say. I guess we all have to take your word for it.

Not!



Quote:
You can pity me to your heart's content. You know nothing about me or my life. This is just another of your typical snide remarks.


You are the Queen of Snide...so you must know. But every indication is that your life is a living hell.

So I do know something about you...what you reveal in your remarks here on A2K.

Saint Frank, the patron saint of internet civility.

Quote:
At least you're good for a chuckle, but not much more than that.


If what I say brings a chuckle into your life...I am delighted. Better to light a candle...etc!
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 08:40 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
You are the Queen of Snide...so you must know. But every indication is that your life is a living hell.

So I do know something about you...what you reveal in your remarks here on A2K.


I knew you'd never be able to resist. Saint Frank, the epistemological giant. How do you "know" any of those snide accusations you made about my life? Since, in fact, you know nothing about me or my life, you are by your own criterion displaying weakness. To claim to know what you do not know, according to your idiotic signature line, is a sign of weakness.

I guess you must be a weak man, Saint Frank. This is all, of course, part and parcel of your inability to defend positions you take. You trot out the sneers and the snide remarks because you lack the rhetorical skills, the logic and the intelligence to defend the silly claims you make.

Clever? Ha! You couldn't "clever" your way out of a wet paper bag.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 08:43 am
@Setanta,
Quote:

I knew you'd never be able to resist. Saint Frank, the epistemological giant. How do you "know" any of those snide accusations you made about my life? Since, in fact, you know nothing about me or my life, you are by your own criterion displaying weakness. To claim to know what you do not know, according to your idiotic signature line, is a sign of weakness.

I guess you must be a weak man, Saint Frank. This is all, of course, part and parcel of your inability to defend positions you take. You trot out the sneers and the snide remarks because you lack the rhetorical skills, the logic and the intelligence to defend the silly claims you make.

Clever? Ha! You couldn't "clever" your way out of a wet paper bag.


I give you, Setanta...the Queen of Snide and the Queen of Smear.

I love that I have to be stupid for you to feel good about yourself.

Keep on trying, Setanta....at some point you may even get something right. You know...even a blind squirrel... Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 08:46 am
@Frank Apisa,
Yup, you can't defend your claims, so you resort to insults and snide remarks. How do you "know" anything about my life, Saint Frank? You haven't answered the question. You've just indulged more smears and sneers. Poor Saint Frank . . . that's all you've got, isn't it, Saint Frank?
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 08:56 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
I believe the experience is real. We would disagree as to interpretation, so it depends how he lives with the experience. If it is important to the person to never be contradicted, said person would be wise to avoid gatherings where doubters and unbelievers discuss/argue such things. I for one can let him have his belief, uncontested, so long as it is not insisted upon that I must share the belief. Looking at it from my side, I have one sister, whom I love. But, on facebook, she constantly posts articles insulting to atheists. Not arguments or calls for dialog. Hateful put-downs. I try to ignore it, but occasionally have to speak up, merely to remind her who one of those hated atheists happens to be
.

I agree with this Edgar.

I have learned over the last several years that just because other's don't believe something I do, it does not make it less real to me. If I truly believe that loving others well is the basis of my belief (and that was Jesus's teaching) then I will love them no matter what they believe. It is understandable why Christians are so hated these days. They forget to love their neighbor as they love themselves. It becomes all about being heard and being right. Which is just wrong. Not what a believer is called to do at all. If anything the basis of being a Christian is that we are imperfect. The message of the Gospel in part is, that you do not have to be perfect to be accepted and loved. It is a given that we are going to screw up. But we have a reason to keep trying to be better- to love others better and so on.

I do think Christians have brought themselves a world of grief but as so many here have stated - it is the radicals of any group that generally are heard.

......what any of us hate in someone elses belief is thinking that they think we are fools for believing the way we do. That we are wrong - that is any one person - no matter what we believe. I don't think there is a way to keep that from happening. I think just embracing the notion that I am indeed a fool at times seems to nip that in the bud. Wink For me anyway.
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 09:26 am
@mismi,
Quote:
. . . it is the radicals of any group that generally are heard.


Amen . . . if you'll excuse the expression.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 09:29 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5287722)
Yup, you can't defend your claims, so you resort to insults and snide remarks. How do you "know" anything about my life, Saint Frank? You haven't answered the question. You've just indulged more smears and sneers. Poor Saint Frank . . . that's all you've got, isn't it, Saint Frank?


Here is what I see on-line (which is the only "you" I can know):

I see an angry, quick-to-take-offence, vulgar, insulting, demeaning, contemptuous, petty individual who apparently enjoys engaging people he considers his inferiors in order to call them out on their inability to meet his exacting standards. You are quick to insult, demean, and show exaggerated contempt for the many people who supposedly rile you.

If you are not that kind of person in non-cyber life...if you are kind, not unhappy, and not easily offended...if you are not contemptuous of the people around you...if you are not the kind of person who would speak with as much disdain as you regularly do here on-line...

...then you are a coward who speaks this way because you know that on-line nobody can kick your ass for your rudeness.

You are correct in one regard, Setanta: I do not know which of these people you are.

Your choice.

Why not inform us?
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 09:34 am
@Frank Apisa,
More insults and no proof. No surprises in that . . . you obviously know nothing about it. That doesn't stop you from running your mouth.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 10:37 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
About a year or so ago, i took the time to go find quotes of what you had posted and re-post them.


soz and others took a crack at Frank Apisa's inconsistencies around definitions related to atheism (weak/strong/agnostic) in 2005 (man, are there ever a lot of threads with the same points being made)

http://able2know.org/topic/53135-11#post-1402835

I say we just agree to call Frank a giraffe and leave it at that.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 10:41 am
@ehBeth,
Sounds good to me. Let's hope there are trees with nutritious foliage near his house.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 11:12 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5287764)
More insults and no proof. No surprises in that . . . you obviously know nothing about it. That doesn't stop you from running your mouth.


I told you what I see of the persona you present here on-line...and it is a rather negative impression you are giving of yourself.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 11:14 am
@Frank Apisa,
No, it's a negative picture you're trying to construct. You have never answered my question. How do you know what my life is like? Let's see, what was it that oh so wise man wrote? To pretend to know what you don't know is a sign of weakness--yeah, that was it.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 11:33 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5287835)
No, it's a negative picture you're trying to construct. You have never answered my question. How do you know what my life is like? Let's see, what was it that oh so wise man wrote? To pretend to know what you don't know is a sign of weakness--yeah, that was it.


This is the third time I am answering it:

I only know the "you" you present here...and I find that persona to be mean-spirited, quick-to-anger, quick-to-take-offense, demeaning, contemptuous...and all those other things.

Have I pretended to know what you are like in real life...if you can call what you are living "real life?" If I have, I will gladly rephrase my comment, because I do not know you personally. If you are anything like your on-line self, I wouldn't even want to be in the same city with you. But I suspect you are probably a coward acting in a way you do not have the guts to do in real life.

Tell us....are you?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 11:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
Yes, you have pretended to know what i'm like, you've been doing it for years, and the sole purpose is to set up opportunities to sneer, to smear, to insult. You don't know anything about me, but you pretend you do.

You're a failure by your own standards. Did you bother to click on the link Beth provided? I doubt it. But it's just more evidence of what a failure you are in your rhetoric.

You're the angry, hateful one around here Frank, not me. You're the one desperate to smear people, Frank, not me.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 11:54 am
By the way, i see you're sinking to new lows in your vicious remarks. That also is not a surprise.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 11:55 am
@Setanta,
C'mon, Setanta...you are only saying this to make me laugh, right?
0 Replies
 
 

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