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Verification Theory/Dualism Debate tangent

 
 
rufio
 
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 01:39 pm
I started thinking about this in response to learning about the Vienna Circle and the Verification Principle and all that hogwash in philosophy a couple weeks ago. The idea - unless I'm totally off here - is that everything that is meaningful should be verifiable in reality - and since we can't verify things like the fact (or at least the possibility) that Socrates was wise (since Socrates is dead), we rely on reflection of him into the present to verify (i.e. dialogues as transcribed by Plato). Extrapolating that, the world in general is just as distant from us as Socrates is and we have to rely on reflections of it (i.e. senses) to make any statements about it. So when we experience things, we don't actually experience a "thing" but a collection of information that we interpret as such. Presumably, a "thing" would be too metaphysical for Ayer to deal with and would be classified as non-meaningful. There was a very lengthy discussion in class about how despite Ayer's best efforts, human beings did really see things as "things" and not as collections of data, and that when we talked about Socrates we really did mean Socrates and not our classics texts. For instance, say that a brown table that has sat in a room for years and years one morning is inexplicably painted white. Is it still the same table? (Supposing we know it was painted rather than replaced.) If what we perceive to be "things" are really collections of similarly related data, than where is there room for a table whose data actually changes when it gets painted? I realize that the gut reaction of everyone here is to shout "color is not in the cultural definition of a table! It is a construction that we even think of it as a table in the first place, let alone the same table!" but the fact still remains that by some rule we would classify it as the same table. It might be because we saw it being painted, or because the hole that I drilled in it with my mechanical pencil last semester during the section about Nietzsche is still there, but there is some criterion.

A while ago, completely unrelated to this, I had a short discussion about the philosophical implications of the two different forms of "to be" in Spanish - ser = to be permanently and estar = to be temporarily - roughly. They represent two types of ideas about definition - either that a person is something that changes from one minute to the next, or that a person is an unchanging core with attributes that change. They're not mutually exclusive, either. In Spanish, one would say "soy baja" (I am (permanently) short) and "estoy en la biblioteca" (I am (temporarily) in the library). But wouldn't it also be correct to say that you were temporarily short, since you might grow taller in the future, just like you might walk out of the library in five minutes? If you grow taller, does that indicate that you have become a different person because the things that characterised you permanently are different? Or, if height, gender, race, name, ect are not permanent characteristics by which we define each other, than what are? Is there some marker, like the hole in the table, that defines us from one state to another? If I were to amputate all of my limbs and get a sex change and extensive plastic surgery, I would still be the same person, no? What permanent characteristic remains to identify me to others - or more importantly, to myself? Clearly, there must be something - there really is an observer.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,276 • Replies: 15
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SCoates
 
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Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 08:03 pm
bm
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rufio
 
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Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 05:10 pm
I really like talking to myself in this forum, it appears.
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dlowan
 
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Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 05:26 pm
bookmark - going out!
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 06:05 pm
I'm bookmarking again, just to insure the bm's outnumber actual posts.
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iduru
 
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Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 07:12 pm
To define some "thing" you must distinguish it from everything else.

Also, I think it's our ability to use any one of our five senses independently or in any combination to differentiate an object or "thing."
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rufio
 
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Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 07:39 pm
Sure, but I'm talking about how we distinguish things, not whether we do or not. A "thing" is a composite of information from all senses, usually, though. You can't distinguish a telephone by only it's ring, or only it's color, because then the "thing" is "a telephone ring" or "the color white" and not "a telephone". There's a set of base criteria to distinguish what constitutes a telephone, which includes neither ringing nor whiteness is a part of, and no one would say that a telephone ring is the same as a telephone, or, even worse, that the color white is the same as a telephone.

But this is really about ways that we distinguish people - the object discussion just leads into it. What about how we distinguish people on the internet - for a simpler problem? Clearly, you identify me by this handle and avatar (or lack thereof), but if made another account with a different handle, I would still be the same person, no?
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iduru
 
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Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 07:57 pm
It's what's inside that counts Laughing
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iduru
 
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Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 08:06 pm
You can't really know something has changed if you're unaware of it's original state.

If you don't know that it's changed, than it is what it is.

So, you must have some knowledge of the object before hand.
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rufio
 
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Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 09:22 pm
That's just it, iduru - what IS inside?

Of course you have to know the object first, but yould you know it if you saw it again, in a different state?
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iduru
 
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Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 10:27 pm
What I think (so far) is...

Should a human change form you could recognize them by examining their personality as well as other unchangeable traits.

With an inanimate object you would need to identify some unique characteristic. Otherwise, you could not be sure of it's authenticity.

hmm..I feel I'm still wandering around the bush. Confused
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iduru
 
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Reply Sat 13 Mar, 2004 12:13 am
Rufio,

My apologies if this diverts from the original question. I am novice to philosophy, and I'm still trying to grasp many concepts. But anyway, I think this might have some relevance.


John Locke made a distinction between the primary and secondary qualities of things:

Locke's list of the basic or primary qualities of matter comprises: solidity, extension, figure [i.e. shape] and mobility...
Now as far as ordinary objects around us is concerned, we normally conceive of them as having many other qualities in addition to those on Locke's list -- the marigold has a striking color, the pineapple a characteristic taste, the perfume a distinct aroma, and so on. But such qualities are, for Locke, merely powers which objects have to produce various sensations in us by means of their primary qualities....The upshot to this is that when we cocieve of an object as having shape, for example, there is, as Locke puts it, a 'resemblance' between our idea of the object and how it really is: '[the] patterns do really exist in the Bodies themselves.' But when we call an object 'sweet' or 'blue', 'there is nothing like our ideas existing in the bodies themselves' (Cottingham, 1996, p. 81).

Cottingham, J. (Ed.) (1996). Western philosophy: An anthology. MA: Blackwell Publishers Ltd.


-iduru
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iduru
 
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Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 05:23 pm
rufio wrote:
I really like talking to myself in this forum, it appears.


Same here Rolling Eyes
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rufio
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2004 01:31 am
Yeah, I went on an emergency vacation to San Fracisco... lol.

In theory, you could change every aspect about a physical object, and at some point, it stops being the same object. For instance, if you chopped up a chair until it turned into little splinters of wood, it wouldn't look anything like the original chair anymore, but you wouldn't call it a chair either, let alone the same one. But a human being is constantly being replaced - I think it's something like every 7 years or so all of our cells are replaced with new ones. But we're still the same no matter how many years pass - that is. the same people.

I tend to agree with you about personality - or memory, anyway, which basically makes personality. But is memory/personaliy actually an entity in itself, or just more cells embedded in our brains, which inevitably get replaced?
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iduru
 
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Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2004 03:13 am
I think your dipping into the question of consciousness there, Rufio. Some might refer to it as the "soul", which really has no physical properties that CAN change.

If you can remember something from your childhood and that memory was a wrinkle in your brain, then if the cells that made up that memory have long since gone, at what point did the memory transfer from the old cells over to the new? Maybe there's an on-going process of memory shipping and consolidation going on up there. We know very little about how the brain and the billions and trillions of nerves that interact up there function, so it's hard to answer that question.
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rufio
 
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Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2004 03:26 pm
And there is also the soul, which doesn't change, and memory, which does, though it doesn't change physically. I remember there was a game like this...

Yeah, here.

http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/identity.htm
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