Agnostics: Do you believe in god?

I just didn't know if any agnostics would admit to that. I learned something here. Thanks, agnostics!

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kickycan wrote:

In Craven's example, he's talking about an invisible dwarf on his shoulder. Are you saying that since you have no evidence either way, you are unequipped to even hazard a guess at whether it exists or not?

If it's an invisible dwarf that cannot be seen, heard, smelled, or sensed in any way, and cannot be picked up by devices, and has no physical impact on the earth in any way (is entirely immaterial)

Then I would have to be agnostic about Craven's Dwarf.

You have to have evidence for proof of existance or non-existance.

That makes the dwarf highly improbable, but not impossible.

(the next question being, how does Craven know it is a dwarf?)

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IronLionZion wrote:

Quote:

Agnostics recognize that knowing whether or not God exists is impossible.

No.

Agnostics affirm that knowledge of god(s) existence or non existence appears to not be available (to them), and therefore whether god exists or not is an unknown (to them). Meaning that it's possible that god exists and it's equally(?) possible that god does not exist, but that god does exist or does not exist is unknown.

"I do not know", leaves the door open..that's the beauty Smile

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truth
Twyvel, where have you been? Broken PC?

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Hi JLNobody

My hands keep falling off.

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Portal Star wrote:

(the next question being, how does Craven know it is a dwarf?)

It talks to me. Says if I give Frank a tribute (10% of my income) I will go to utopia when I die.

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Snicker.

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Twyvel

I think your "departure" is an attempt to resolve the problem of the emergence of "form" within a "void". Some of the mathematics of embedded structure does not rule out the evocation of "an utimate observer(Von Foerster). This is difficult stuff sometimes referred to as "bootstrap tactics".

Even as an atheist I have admitted to the transcendent mental state we might call "spirituality" , but I am not prepared to say that what emerges from this this might be synonymous with "God". If however this what you are using as potential evidence I cannot counter such a claim. All I can resort to is the Wittgenstein position that you are playing an idiosyncratic language game with the words "evidence" and "god" ,just as I might be so accused with the word "existence". But beyond these "word games" I believe (sic) that my atheistic view of "existence" is somehow "better supported" by the "coherence" of the mathematics, (which I take to be a valid non-ideosyncratic metalanguage) than your agnostic view of "evidence".

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fresco wrote:

Twyvel

I think your "departure" is an attempt to resolve the problem of the emergence of "form" within a "void". Some of the mathematics of embedded structure does not rule out the evocation of "an utimate observer(Von Foerster). This is difficult stuff sometimes referred to as "bootstrap tactics".

Even as an atheist I have admitted to the transcendent mental state we might call "spirituality" , but I am not prepared to say that what emerges from this this might be synonymous with "God". If however this what you are using as potential evidence I cannot counter such a claim. All I can resort to is the Wittgenstein position that you are playing an idiosyncratic language game with the words "evidence" and "god" ,just as I might be so accused with the word "existence". But beyond these "word games" I believe (sic) that my atheistic view of "existence" is somehow "better supported" by the "coherence" of the mathematics, (which I take to be a valid non-ideosyncratic metalanguage) than your agnostic view of "evidence".

Stop that dirty talk !!

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fresco

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Another atheist crashes the thread. God was invented within the human mind. How could I believe in the figment of someone's imagination, when there is not the slightest proof of or need of a god?

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Craven de Kere wrote:

Portal Star wrote:

(the next question being, how does Craven know it is a dwarf?)

It talks to me. Says if I give Frank a tribute (10% of my income) I will go to utopia when I die.

Well, well, well.

I was skeptical about this dwarf -- and it was a "good thing" that I was -- but now that I hear that the dwarf speaks -- AND SPEAKS THE TRUTH -- I am inclined to guess that it actually does exist and does speak to you.

Of course, you may not be interested in going to Utopia...but on the chance that you might find this important, I will furnish my account number at Party Poker so that you can make regular deposits directly into my account there.

I understand Utopia is worth the additional efforts.

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Personally, I love folk tales and myths, so I welcome dwarves, elves and fairies into my life, as well as evil witches and nasty children. Somehow, god doesn't figure into it.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

Portal Star wrote:

(the next question being, how does Craven know it is a dwarf?)

It talks to me. Says if I give Frank a tribute (10% of my income) I will go to utopia when I die.

for somthing immaterial to become material it must either become temporarily material (which would be physically observable and have impact on the earth) or have some interaction point where it becomes material.

So in order for it to talk to you (who are physical), it has to create sound waves or physically implant the message into your brain. That means it was/is physical. That also means we can disprove the existance of your dwarf.

By the way, I have nothing wrong with you giving money to Frank, but get your facts straight first.

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edgarblythe wrote:

Another atheist crashes the thread. God was invented within the human mind. How could I believe in the figment of someone's imagination, when there is not the slightest proof of or need of a god?

Because, scientifically, you need evidence to prove or disprove somthing. If there is no evidence it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it doesn't mean it does exist.

Dieties do not exist as g-ds or g-desses.

Define this g-d that you don't believe in. Define g-d.

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Portal Star wrote:

Craven de Kere wrote:
Portal Star wrote:
(the next question being, how does Craven know it is a dwarf?)

It talks to me. Says if I give Frank a tribute (10% of my income) I will go to utopia when I die.

for something immaterial to become material it must either become temporarily material (which would be physically observable and have impact on the earth) or have some interaction point where it becomes material.

So in order for it to talk to you (who are physical), it has to create sound waves or physically implant the message into your brain. That means it was/is physical. That also means we can disprove the existence of your dwarf.

By the way, I have nothing wrong with you giving money to Frank, but get your facts straight first.

Nonsense.

While we're entertaining ridiculous ideas such as gods & invisible dwarves, there are plenty of ways to make it "work." What if the dwarf chooses to only be heard by Craven (and only while Craven isn't trying to prove its existence)? What if this dwarf implants things into your brain in a way that isn't detectable by any instrument? What if it can only be heard by people who truly have faith in it & regularly tithe to Frank? What if it doesn't operate within the realm of our current understanding of the physical universe, or if it operates in a "spiritual" realm that is completely beyond human comprehension? What if it purchased technology from magical singing cows that makes it possible for the dwarf to cloak itself in a forcefield that blocks any attempt to prove its existence? and so on and on...

Do you maintain your agnosticism about the ability of magical singing cows to create dwarf-cloaking technology?

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I, as an atheist, agree with edgarblythe's statement that "God was invented in the human mind"; but I also realize that a "believer" can not and should not accept this statement.

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flyboy804 wrote:

I, as an atheist, agree with edgarblythe's statement that "God was invented in the human mind"; but I also realize that a "believer" can not and should not accept this statement.

But "believers" do accept that statement, Flyboy. At least the ones who "believe" there are no gods do.

Theists are "believers."

Athesits are "believers" also.

Agnostics, at worst, are guessers. But most avoid all this "belief" stuff like the plague.

ASIDE: I have known -- still know -- theists, atheists, and fellow agnostics who are great individuals and whom I love very much. There are also some major league assholes to be found in all three categories.

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BTW, I'm perfectly willing to buy that the only true answer is "I really don't know," though for a number of reasons (which personally I consider to be good, logical reasons) I've chosen to adopt the belief that there are not any gods or goddesses, much in the way that I've chosen not to believe in fairies. One thing though, I do not personally know any agnostics I'd describe as mad fanatics. That's something I can't say about theists or atheists, and something which I believe says something good about the agnostic ideology in itself.

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Frank- You are totally correct literally. I carelessly used the word "believer" in the most commonly used sense of "one who believes in a divine being."

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Agnostics: Do you believe in god?

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