The brief appearance of Islamic members.

trying to prove the existence of God/Allah/Yaweh etc is futile anyway.

in my opinion, and it's just opinion, God is unprovable, and should be.
to prove the existence of God would by extension raise the question of who created God, which in turn would question whether God was God.
even the discovery of God would undermine His position.

1 Reply

@Berty McJock,

...with respect to how you define God.

1 Reply

@aspvenom,

true, but then God is personal...
also i'm talking of the "God" of the "western" abrahamic religions.
and i did say it was only my opinion...i threw it in as an aside. the fact is we can't at this time prove it one way or another, so it's largely irrelevant.

1 Reply

@Berty McJock,

Ja man

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@Fatihah,

I don't want you to have to keep clinging to this severely flawed argument.
I don't want you to take this as reflecting negatively on you as a person.
I just think you should try again, that's how we learn.
There are certainly more convincing arguments than the one you described.
I found some of the work by C.S. Lewis to be at least charming, maybe you could look at Mere Christianity. You could use one or two of his arguments (substituting in Allah if needed).

1 Reply

@fresco,

[quoteWhat utter rot !

Evidence of "patterned" behavior in newborn infants can be verified by every parent on the planet. The developmental psychologist Jean Piaget made a living by systemeatizing it, as "operation of schemas".

More importantly, you have failed account for the spontaneous occurrence of complex life-like patterns in dynamic chemical systems demonstrated by Prigogine et al.

To summarize.
1. Your pattern argument is irrelevant because you equate pattern production with pattern perception.
and
2. Even if it were relevant there are counter examples such as those above
which refute your conjecture.

In short, you so-called "logical argument" is not even worthy of consideration. You have been logically "had for breakfast" ! ][/quote]

Response: The idiocy has no apparent end I see. Not once, I repeat, not once, did you demonstrate above any evidence of a new born or dead body creating a repeating pattern. Come on dummy. Show us. Exactly. You have none.

So not only have you proven absolutely nothing, but your own idiocy continues to support the fact that unintelligence cannot originate a repeating pattern, thus proving that the order of the universe originated from intelligent design. Debunked as usual.

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@Berty McJock,

Quote:

it means nothing of the sort.

it means i want to see where you got your information from. IF you reference your claims, i can verify them, and only THEN will i approach agreement with you.

Response: Then since you are not saying that a dead body or a new born baby can create a repeating pattern, then there is no need to bring forth any reference to the contrary.

1 Reply

@Berty McJock,

Quote:

why the obsession with new born babies and dead bodies? can't you use other non-intelligent examples....maybe some which actually work? anything inanimate ( a dead body for example) is, by definition, unintelligent, and therefore irrelevant. for your claim to work, the unintelligent subject needs at least to be living. and i maintain my point about babies...they are learning from the moment they are born (possibly even before) so they are therefore intelligent. whether or not they can create a pattern, for the purposes of your own arguement, is irrelevant, they can recogise a pattern, you can be sure of that, and will at some point, have mastered enough hand-eye co-ordination to draw one.

Response: There is no need to use any other evidence when clearly, the fact that neither a dead body or new born baby is capable of creating a repeating pattern is evidence enough. Neither you, nor anyone on the forum is capable of showing otherwise. Secondly, I never stated that a new born is unintelligent. I stated that a new born only has little intelligence intelligence. And when considering the fact that even a little bit of intelligence cannot create a repeating pattern and that a baby can only do so once they gain more intelligence, then it's obviously clear that it takes intelligence to create a repeating pattern. Thus proving that the order in the universe originated from intelligent design, i.e. Allah(God).

1 Reply

@Fatihah,

Quote:

Then since you are not saying that a dead body or a new born baby can create a repeating pattern, then there is no need to bring forth any reference to the contrary.

there IS if you want to use it as evidence of intelligent design...and i still don't understand why you use these, and ONLY these (corpses and newborns) as evidence. both are irrelevant, as one has no capacity to design, draw or recognise anything (as far as this arguement is concerned it might as well not exist), and the other is doing nothing but learning, and doesn't yet have the required MOTOR SKILLS and KNOWLEDGE (ignorance is not a lack of intelligence) to do what you ask of it...this has nothing to do with intellect, again rendering it obsolete, as it is incorrect.

1 Reply

@Berty McJock,

Yet your statement that my evidence is "flawed" is exposed by your own inability to find flaw in it. So I'm afraid that your rebuttal is not a very good claim, and only supports the evidence presented.

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@Fatihah,

Quote:

There is no need to use any other evidence when clearly, the fact that neither a dead body or new born baby is capable of creating a repeating pattern is evidence enough. Neither you, nor anyone on the forum is capable of showing otherwise. Secondly, I never stated that a new born is unintelligent. I stated that a new born only has little intelligence intelligence. And when considering the fact that even a little bit of intelligence cannot create a repeating pattern and that a baby can only do so once they gain more intelligence, then it's obviously clear that it takes intelligence to create a repeating pattern. Thus proving that the order in the universe originated from intelligent design, i.e. Allah(God).

i give up.

you can't decide when intelligence is intelligence, or at least enough to create an entire universe using patterns, and fly in the face of, even outright deny the existence of evidence to the contrary, which has been posted more than once on this thread.

ergo, we have shown otherwise, you choose dogmatically to ignore it.

this is not reasoned debate.

i give up.

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

Have you presented evidence of a dead body or new born creating a repeating pattern? No.

So I think that it is you that should reconsider your own argument because so far, your inability to show evidence contrary to what was presented only strengthens the argument.

2 Replies

@Berty McJock,

Quote:

there IS if you want to use it as evidence of intelligent design...and i still don't understand why you use these, and ONLY these (corpses and newborns) as evidence. both are irrelevant, as one has no capacity to design, draw or recognise anything (as far as this arguement is concerned it might as well not exist), and the other is doing nothing but learning, and doesn't yet have the required MOTOR SKILLS and KNOWLEDGE (ignorance is not a lack of intelligence) to do what you ask of it...this has nothing to do with intellect, again rendering it obsolete, as it is incorrect.

Response: Yet your very statement that it has no capacity to require knowledge proves in fact that it is unintelligent. So it is relevant, according to your own statement. Thus your very statement supports the fact that unintelligence cannot originate a repeating pattern.

1 Reply

@Fatihah,

if you're arguement is simply "a corpse or a newborn cannot create a repeating geometric pattern" then you are right...to a point. there are still details to argue over, but i'll accept that as a generalisation.
HOW that proves the existence of God, quite honestly, i don't see.
many many things in the universe are less intelligent than us, and many many many more are unintelligent through being inanimate.
what IS your point?

1 Reply

@Berty McJock,

You've shown absolutely nothing, since you still have not shown a dead body or new born creating a repeating pattern. So you have dogmatically decided to deny the clear evidence that unintelligence cannot originate a repeating pattern, and have shown further evidence that Alah(God) exist. Thanks for the clarification.

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@Fatihah,

Quote:

Yet your very statement that it has no capacity to require knowledge

where did i say that?

not having something yet does not rule out it's requirement. how many times have you needed something (anything!) and not had it available.??

i really am done now, i shall follow this thread for amusement, but i give up.

1 Reply

@Berty McJock,

Since unintelligence cannot originate a repeating pattern, as evidenced by the inability of a dead body or new born to create a repeating pattern due to the lack of intelligence, that that means that the order in the universe could only have originated from intelligent design. Thus proving the existence of God.

1 Reply

@Berty McJock,

Yet if not having something causes one to lack intelligence, and canot create a repeating pattern, and can only do so once they gain something to acquire intelligence, then that means by your own statement that unintelligence is still responsible for the inability to create a repeating pattern. So again, you prove my point.

1 Reply

@Fatihah,

unintelligence CAN create repeating patterns, as evidenced all through nature using fibonacci, phi, pi,...the list goes on. YOU have been shown this, it runs contrary to YOUR arguement, the burden of proof is now on YOU. YOU need to come up with better "proof". for goodness sake, i've even shown better evidence than yours for intelligent design. it is out there, beyond corpses and newborn babies.

1 Reply

The first sign to book it out of a discussion is if someone who must provide sufficient warrant for their position begin to shift the burden of proof to the critic.

It's hopeless to penetrate the wall of ignorance. Run everyone.

0 Replies

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