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Fri 5 Mar, 2004 10:04 am
There seems to be a lot of spiritual/religious confusion these days, but it has actually been that way for quite some time.
Amazing how the human ego erases things which do not support it. How that sometimes an entire village can become so hypocritical that they lose sight of reality. Even Religion becomes a tool for the human ego and truth seems to lie only with the few that people ignore as the "village idiots".
Even many of the "American Indians" have ignored their own spiritual leadership. A leadership which has become so insignificant because they do not have a great personal ego. They are too spiritual to fit in with any society which is a part of what is commonly known as "Americana".
Here is the little-known story of the original American Hierarchy and how it became buried: Moderator (Edit) Link Removed
Have you read American Gods by Neil Gaiman?
truth
I don't accept the notion of "spiritual leadership." At most one can be a spiritual facilitator, but only with great humility, never with official authority.
JL. Have you any knowledge or experience with the Native system of government. It may change your paradims
Portal Star wrote:Have you read American Gods by Neil Gaiman?
No. It sounds interesting though. Can you give a brief pre-read?
Thunder Cloud wrote:Portal Star wrote:Have you read American Gods by Neil Gaiman?
No. It sounds interesting though. Can you give a brief pre-read?
It's a fictional novel with a tragic hero. It's about how the g-ds of the past are forgotten, then have no strength. It centers around the lack of need for mythology in America. The g-d characters are all really fun and interesting. I recommend it, it's a good read. Totally worth the purchace.
Re: truth
JLNobody wrote:I don't accept the notion of "spiritual leadership." At most one can be a spiritual facilitator, but only with great humility, never with official authority.
I know that many do not accept the notion of "spiritual leadership". How could they if they live in a "seperation of church & state" form of leadership. To the Apache however, everything is about spirituality in a way, so subsiquently leadership is as well.
As far as humility goes, I don't think that a person with the knowledge and ability to be a good spiritual guide should be too humiliated to even be able to speak with others. I thought that my point was made in the story, but perhaps not...I am still thinking of ways to better my writing.
As far as the "official authority" goes...I don't think that Jesus was born in an office. Either way, the spiritual authority of the remnants of this tribe is recognized by the Universal Hierarchy. Some think that written documentation is generally required by those who cannot trust one-anothers word.
Portal Star wrote:Thunder Cloud wrote:Portal Star wrote:Have you read American Gods by Neil Gaiman?
No. It sounds interesting though. Can you give a brief pre-read?
It's a fictional novel with a tragic hero. It's about how the g-ds of the past are forgotten, then have no strength. It centers around the lack of need for mythology in America. The g-d characters are all really fun and interesting. I recommend it, it's a good read. Totally worth the purchace.
I am perhaps too much of a realist. I do not see any more important long-term goal of humankind than that of Salvation, and if that is a myth in America, the children are in big trouble.
Sounds like a fun read that I may not have time for.
Thanks anyway.
Ceili wrote:JL. Have you any knowledge or experience with the Native system of government. It may change your paradims
The "American Indians" (as many of them prefer to be called), have different ideas about a lot of things from one tribe to another. The remnants of my immediate tribe hardly have an elaborate system of government. My point here is simply to get more people to recognize that the true history of America is not the well-painted version that everyone likes to think. That true history is not something which goes away, or has no effect on the people whether they realize it or not.
I live in canada, we have several 'canadian indian' systems of self-government, but all are similar with respect to elders and spritual guidence.
Other than that I'm not sure what the message is, but welcome to a2k.
Ceili wrote:I live in canada, we have several 'canadian indian' systems of self-government, but all are similar with respect to elders and spritual guidence.
Other than that I'm not sure what the message is, but welcome to a2k.
I am not sure what the problem with tribal governments is myself. I was simply relating an important part of the spiritual history of N. America as it was told to me when I was a child. I simply linked this to avoid pasting too much into a message.
I see that my link has been deleted. Could I get an explanation?
Hello Thundercloud.
The moderators will delete a link if it sends people to a commercial site (among other things). They won't tell you because they are busy doing this frequently during the day and don't feel the need to explain themselves, but you can look at the rules of the forum for more information. You'll probably recognize whatever the fault was there. These deletions have included even links to people's gallery sites, kind of a shame, but that's the rules. You can give broad hints about the website if you want... hint, hint... and then people who are interested will look for it ala Google.
I am surprised that in the context of tribal spirituality you say "salvation" is a long-term goal. Are you speaking of Christian salvation or something else?
Anyway, welcome to a2k! I hope you enjoy the discussions.
Thunder Cloud wrote:Portal Star wrote:Thunder Cloud wrote:Portal Star wrote:Have you read American Gods by Neil Gaiman?
No. It sounds interesting though. Can you give a brief pre-read?
It's a fictional novel with a tragic hero. It's about how the g-ds of the past are forgotten, then have no strength. It centers around the lack of need for mythology in America. The g-d characters are all really fun and interesting. I recommend it, it's a good read. Totally worth the purchace.
I am perhaps too much of a realist. I do not see any more important long-term goal of humankind than that of Salvation, and if that is a myth in America, the children are in big trouble.
Sounds like a fun read that I may not have time for.
Thanks anyway.
Nobody needs salvation, thundercloud. Salvation is an invented concept. Iv'e never met anyone who escaped death, and I don't know anyone who's ever met anyone who escaped death.
Sometimes fictions reveal truths through the invention of story. As a religious person, I am sure you are familiar with the importance of parable.
Anyway, the book is basically about everything you're talking about, only in ficticious form.
Piffka wrote:Hello Thundercloud.
The moderators will delete a link if it sends people to a commercial site (among other things). They won't tell you because they are busy doing this frequently during the day and don't feel the need to explain themselves, but you can look at the rules of the forum for more information. You'll probably recognize whatever the fault was there. These deletions have included even links to people's gallery sites, kind of a shame, but that's the rules. You can give broad hints about the website if you want... hint, hint... and then people who are interested will look for it ala Google.
I am surprised that in the context of tribal spirituality you say "salvation" is a long-term goal. Are you speaking of Christian salvation or something else?
Anyway, welcome to a2k! I hope you enjoy the discussions.
I mean Salvation in the sense that there is a better world awaiting anyone who understands. It is the same Salvation which the Bible refers to. Although my tribe speaks a different language, the faith is basically the same. There is but ONE God...ONE creator. There are many faiths, but just ONE Religion. Those who do not have a reputable spiritual education do not understand this.
Suffice it to say that there are worlds out there with geo-physical properties more conducive to a greater physiobiological existence. This is the long-term goal of many "American Indians", people in the Middle East, and others in the world. Generally, industrial advancements do not necessarily denote an understanding of these things. To be in too great of a hurry would be construed as greed by those who know what awaits everyone.
What proof do you have that this salvation you speak of exists?
Thunder,
I think you might get to know more about the Apache before making some of your statements. "Apache" is not what the people call themselves, but is a term applied to them meaning "enemy". All of the Apache tribes speak a form of Athabascan. The Athabascan speakers who came to be known as Apache almost certainly migrated south from somewhere in Canada west of the Great Lakes not terribly long before European discovery of the Western Hemisphere. They apparently displaced earlier Plains tribes, such as the Kiawa, and were displaced in turn by the commanche (a sub-set of the Shoshone centered in the Rocky Mountains). The Apache were in New Mexico, Southeastern Texas and in Arizona perhaps only a hundred years before Cabaza arrived.
The largest sub-group of the Apache is the Navajo. Apache bands have tended to be named for the area around which the band regarded as their own. Membres, Agua Caliente, Jemez, White Mountain, Chiricauha, etc. are the best known bands. Apache bands are matriarcal, with the women owning the property. Husbands go to live near their wive's mother, though never with them. There were even some Apache women who were notable war leaders, Geronimo's sister for example.
The Apache, for all of their known history, were basically nomadic raiders whose standing depended laregly on how good a thief a man was. Gambling was also a trait among 18th and 19th Apache men who were known to gamble even on games they knew were fixed. Apache boys were trained from a very early age to be raiders, and they were rigorously tested by the leading men of their bands. Each band had a hereditary leader, though their powers varied considerably. Men like Mangas Coloradas was respected by most of the bands operating in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and northern Mexico. Cochise, a Chiricahua also was also a widely accepted leader. Others, like Victorio were cultural heros, but had little influence beyond their own band.
The Apache welcomed the first Anglos into the Southwest as potential allies against the Mexicans with whom they had waged merciless war for over a hundred years. It didn't take long for the good-feeling to fade, and the threat of Apache raids continued until nearly the end of the 19th century. Though the U.S. Army made heroic efforts to defeat the Apache, they were not really very successful when not guided by Apache Scouts. When Geronimo, a "medicine man" surrendered the U.S. imprisoned all the Apache they could, including the Apache Scouts who worked for the U.S. Army against the "bronco" Apaches. At that time the Chiricahua hereditary chief was Naichee, the second son of Cochise. I met with Naichee's Grandaughter in the 1970's ... a charming woman.
The thing is, Thunder, you've seem to have a whole lot of mistaken ideas about the Apache, their culture and religion. There are some outstanding books available that you might read to improve your knowledge of the tribe.
Asherman wrote:Thunder,
I think you might get to know more about the Apache before making some of your statements. "Apache" is not what the people call themselves, but is a term applied to them meaning "enemy". All of the Apache tribes speak a form of Athabascan. The Athabascan speakers who came to be known as Apache almost certainly migrated south from somewhere in Canada west of the Great Lakes not terribly long before European discovery of the Western Hemisphere. They apparently displaced earlier Plains tribes, such as the Kiawa, and were displaced in turn by the commanche (a sub-set of the Shoshone centered in the Rocky Mountains). The Apache were in New Mexico, Southeastern Texas and in Arizona perhaps only a hundred years before Cabaza arrived.
The largest sub-group of the Apache is the Navajo. Apache bands have tended to be named for the area around which the band regarded as their own. Membres, Agua Caliente, Jemez, White Mountain, Chiricauha, etc. are the best known bands. Apache bands are matriarcal, with the women owning the property. Husbands go to live near their wive's mother, though never with them. There were even some Apache women who were notable war leaders, Geronimo's sister for example.
The Apache, for all of their known history, were basically nomadic raiders whose standing depended laregly on how good a thief a man was. Gambling was also a trait among 18th and 19th Apache men who were known to gamble even on games they knew were fixed. Apache boys were trained from a very early age to be raiders, and they were rigorously tested by the leading men of their bands. Each band had a hereditary leader, though their powers varied considerably. Men like Mangas Coloradas was respected by most of the bands operating in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and northern Mexico. Cochise, a Chiricahua also was also a widely accepted leader. Others, like Victorio were cultural heros, but had little influence beyond their own band.
The Apache welcomed the first Anglos into the Southwest as potential allies against the Mexicans with whom they had waged merciless war for over a hundred years. It didn't take long for the good-feeling to fade, and the threat of Apache raids continued until nearly the end of the 19th century. Though the U.S. Army made heroic efforts to defeat the Apache, they were not really very successful when not guided by Apache Scouts. When Geronimo, a "medicine man" surrendered the U.S. imprisoned all the Apache they could, including the Apache Scouts who worked for the U.S. Army against the "bronco" Apaches. At that time the Chiricahua hereditary chief was Naichee, the second son of Cochise. I met with Naichee's Grandaughter in the 1970's ... a charming woman.
The thing is, Thunder, you've seem to have a whole lot of mistaken ideas about the Apache, their culture and religion. There are some outstanding books available that you might read to improve your knowledge of the tribe.
It appears that you did not get to fully read what was on my link. My link regards the remnants of a particular tribe of Apache, even whose language itself is somewhat different from other Apaches. I do not speak for other Apaches and their stories and traditions etc. I am not here to discuss Apache culture, and I have no mistaken ideas.
I do not intend to insult, however someone who is Apache might know more about the Apache than someone who is not. There are several links to sites which give these historical accounts which you have presented. Anyone can find them. Books and documentations can show history in the preferred sense and often close reality on any other angle of viewpoint.
Portal Star wrote:What proof do you have that this salvation you speak of exists?
The very existence of Religion itself is
somewhat proof that something exists beyond the given.
The very proof itself is something which is not given because it can cause people to become so enamored with it that they become somewhat opiated by it and less productive. At least THAT should be obvious.
Thunder Cloud wrote:Portal Star wrote:What proof do you have that this salvation you speak of exists?
The very existence of Religion itself is
somewhat proof that something exists beyond the given.
The very proof itself is something which is not given because it can cause people to become so enamored with it that they become somewhat opiated by it and less productive. At least THAT should be obvious.
I don't think the existence of religion says anything other than that people -want- salvation. That doesn't mean it is actually there.
Why would salvation be an opiate that would make people unproductive? That fact that death would be some kind of blissful, eternal life?
I think that we should invest everything we can into our lives - our real lives.
Portal Star wrote:Thunder Cloud wrote:Portal Star wrote:What proof do you have that this salvation you speak of exists?
The very existence of Religion itself is
somewhat proof that something exists beyond the given.
The very proof itself is something which is not given because it can cause people to become so enamored with it that they become somewhat opiated by it and less productive. At least THAT should be obvious.
I don't think the existence of religion says anything other than that people -want- salvation. That doesn't mean it is actually there.
Why would salvation be an opiate that would make people unproductive? That fact that death would be some kind of blissful, eternal life?
I think that we should invest everything we can into our lives - our real lives.
Naturally, we will live and we will die. We should do our best with what we have. However, there will soon come a generation who will have the opportunity for more.
The knowledge of Salvation would perhaps not opiate people so much today as it has done in the past, because the time is nearer at hand. One could only try to imagine that there is a much more profound way of thinking between simply being told that there is eternal life and bliss awaiting humankind...and actually seeing and knowing it.
It is not death that is blissful, but life. It is only the resurrection which is eternal in this world and eternal life itself that is more a reality in the next.
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