Cyracuz
 
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 01:15 pm
Apparently, under the right circumstances, the body can produce acetone, which is highly flammable. This professor seems to claim that spontaneous human combustion can actually happen.

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/Professor-gets-crackling-on-human-combustion-theory-21082012.htm
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Type: Question • Score: 2 • Views: 2,837 • Replies: 25
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 01:27 pm
@Cyracuz,
My Kaspersky antivirus program denied access to that site. Maybe it's getting paranoid, but I hope you do not develope problems from the site.

I get a new advertisement at least once a day that starts off "One weird trick discovered by Cambridge Scientists. . . ." I'm beginning to have doubts about Cambridge scientists.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 01:46 pm
@roger,
I don't know about Cambridge scientists. It does sound pretty bizarre. The guy's name is Brian J Ford, if you're interested in Googling it.

http://www.brianjford.com/CF10_SHC.pdf
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 01:49 pm
@Cyracuz,
Given that the human body is somewhere near 90 percents water it going to take one hell of a lot of energy to burn up a body from chemistries contain in a human body.

Not likely is my off hand judgment call.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 01:54 pm
@BillRM,
I feel I can live without making this particular call. Funny though, that people are actually researching this. I wonder if we would be able to think of something that somebody isn't researching somewhere in the world...
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 02:03 pm
@Cyracuz,
Have you heard of the 'wick effect?'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wick_effect
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 02:17 pm
@izzythepush,
Yes. It was described in the article I first found about this. That was in Norwegian though.. Professor Ford seems to think that the clothes acting as a wick to the melted fat would be insufficient, since the clothes would burn up too fast. He says that in some situations, like ketosis, the body produces acetone, which is flammable. It is released in our breath, and if there is enough of it, a spark from a cigarette can ignite it and the fat in the body would burst into flames, saturated with acetone to fuel the flames.

It's a wild theory. I'm not really qualified to say what's what. I just find it interesting.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 02:35 pm
@Cyracuz,
I saw a documentary that said it took quite a long time, eight or nine hours at least.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 02:42 pm
@Cyracuz,
There is simply no energy source in the human body powerful enough to boil a hundred pounds or so of water in the average male body or the 60 pounds or so in a female body.

http://www.skepdic.com/shc.html

physical possibility of SHC

The physical possibilities of spontaneous human combustion are remote. Not only is the body mostly water, but aside from fat tissue and methane gas, there isn't much that burns readily in a human body. To cremate a human body requires a temperature of 1600 degrees Fahrenheit for about two hours. To get a chemical reaction in a human body that would lead to ignition would require some doing. If the deceased had recently eaten an enormous amount of hay that was infested with bacteria, enough heat might be generated to ignite the hay, but not much besides the gut and intestines would probably burn. Or, if the deceased had been eating the newspaper and drunk some oil, and was left to rot for a couple of weeks in a well-heated room, his gut might ignite. And in each of these ludicrous scenarios additional oxygen would have to be introduced. These possibilities are so farfetched that I have no reason to believe they, or anything like them, has ever occurred.

Larry Arnold's theory that sometimes human cells are hit by a mysterious particle, the pyrotron, that causes a nuclear chain reaction inside a person's body is based on wild speculation and ignorance of cellular life and spontaneous nuclear fusion.* Some other theories without merit are:

maser (microwave amplification by stimulated emission of radiation) induction, geomagnetism, and even kundalini (a form of yoga/mystic body heating). Perhaps the most preposterous suggestion is that stress can cause a person to burst into flames (perpetuated by Larry Arnold), or that hydrogen and oxygen remain as gasses in human cells and are thus highly ignitable – in which case the reader would do well not to inhale.*
A more economical and reasonable theory of how human bodies burn in rooms without having the entire room engulfed in flames is the idea of the wick effect. The ignition point of human fat is low and to get the fire going would require an external source. Once ignited, however, a "wick effect" from the body's fat would burn hot enough in certain places to destroy even bones. To prove that a human being might burn like a candle, Dr. John de Haan of the California Criminalistic Institute wrapped a dead pig in a blanket, poured a small amount of gasoline on the blanket, and ignited it. Even the bones were destroyed after five hours of continuous burning. The fat content of a pig is very similar to the fat content of a human being. The damage to the pig, according to Dr. De Haan "is exactly the same as that from supposed spontaneous human combustion." A National Geographic special on SHC showed a failed attempt to duplicate the burning pig experiment. However, it is obvious that the failure was due to leaving the door to the room open to the outside, which created a draft and led to the flames igniting everything in the room. Had the room been closed up, as are the rooms in which many of the elderly persons have died in fires attributed to SHC, it is likely that the pig would have smoldered for several hours without the rest of the room becoming engulfed in flames.

In their investigation of a number of SHC cases, Dr. Joe Nickell and Dr. John Fisher found that when the destruction of the body was minimal, the only significant fuel source was the individual's clothes, but where the destruction was considerable, additional fuel sources increased the combustion. Materials under the body help retain melted fat that flows from the body and serves to keep it burning. The reason some bodies are totally consumed except for the legs or feet probably has to do with the fact that these victims were seated when they caught fire and flames move upward.

Some alleged cases of SHC are cases of spontaneous combustion but they are explicable by natural means. For example, a chemical reaction on or in a person's clothing can result in spontaneous combustion. The National Geographic special, mentioned above, investigated a case of a woman whose clothes suddenly caught fire and burned the skin on her thigh. The most likely explanation is that she put a shell in her pocket that was covered in sodium from a fireworks show that had taken place on the beach where she had retrieved the shell. Later, she stuck a wet handkerchief in her pocket with the shell. The sodium may have reacted with the water, releasing hydrogen that self-ignited,* causing her burns. In any case, she did not burn from the inside, as is claimed happens to SHC victims.

Richard Milton, the alternative scientist, lists several cases that he thinks are convincing proof of SHC. All but one of the cases he cites come from Larry Arnold, the one who posits an unknown particle that occasionally strikes a cell inside a person, causing a nuclear reaction. Here's a sampling.

1.Jean Lucille Saffin. This 61-year-old mentally handicapped woman burst into flames in her kitchen. "Her father, who was seated at a nearby table, said he saw a flash of light out of the corner of his eye and turned ... to find that she was enveloped in flames, mainly around her face and hands." The fire was put out with water by Mr. Saffin and his son-in-law. No cause of the fire was found. How does this qualify as a case of SHC? Because an unnamed policeman told Saffin's relatives that that's what he believed caused Jean's death. Milton is also impressed by the fact that the father and son-in-law claim the fire lasted only a minute or two (so there should be no surprise that the rest of the room didn't go up in flames!). Milton doesn't consider that the testimony of the father and son-in-law may be tainted.


2.Helen Conway. You've probably seen this picture before.
Conway was an elderly, infirm woman who was a heavy and careless smoker. (There were many cigarette burns in her room.) She burned up while sitting in an upholstered chair in her bedroom. Why is this considered SHC? The fire chief said that's what he believed. He also said it only took 21 minutes for her to burn. If it did, the wick effect would not account for how she burned. (Arnold uses some sort of "deduction" to figure out that it may have taken only six minutes for Conway's body to be consumed.) Since they can't figure out how Conway burned up in such a short time, both Arnold and Milton conclude it was probably SHC.

Joe Nickell speculates that the fire "may have begun at the base of the seated body and burned straight upward, fed by the fat in the torso, and may have thus been a much more intense fire - not unlike grease fires that all who cook are familiar with. Indeed, in searching through the dense smoke for the victim, an assistant chief sank his hand "into something greasy" that proved to be the woman's remains."*

Milton's research in this area is limited almost exclusively to Larry Arnold's book Ablaze!: The Mysterious Fires of Spontaneous Human Combustion, a book which features a blurb from Maury Povich on its back cover. Paranormal investigator Joe Nickell refers to this work as Spontaneous Human Nonsense.

The stories that Milton posts on his web site reveal his willingness to be dazzled by speculations about SHC. It is true that the examples he has chosen can't be explained by the wick effect because they are all of cases where the person in flames is come upon within a relatively short time of being on fire. The wick effect requires hours of slow burning. However, the evidence that any of these cases is actually a case of spontaneous human combustion is flimsy at best



izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 02:52 pm
@BillRM,
The thing is Bill, there are cases of death by fire, that have previously been classed as spontaneous human combustion, because they stand out from other deaths caused by fire. Namely the fire is extremely localised, with plenty of combustable material nearby that's not even singed.

The wick effect, which has been observed, gives a rational explanation, instead of bodies bursting into flames and burning fircely for a few minutes, we have someone's corpse coming into contact with a flame, and through the wick effect burning very very slowly like a candle.

Now you're saying this is impossible, so there must be some supernatural explanation for spontaneous human combustion. Do you think it's the wrath of God?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 02:55 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Now you're saying this is impossible, so there must be some supernatural explanation for spontaneous human combustion. Do you think it's the wrath of God?


No I do not think the cases are being reported correctly.

Sound like a case for the myth busters..............
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 03:15 pm
Everything seems pretty vague so far. Acetone is produced in our fat tissue. Ok, we know this, and we also know that acetone is very flammable. But can the body make enough of it that it can actually burst into flames?
I think the number of times this has allegedly happened was around 120 over a period of 500 years. Maybe there's some rare syndrome involved, which doesn't allow the body to dump it's acetone, and in the end it builds up to the point where it has nowhere to go but boom... I'm speculating now, but Spontaneous Combustion Syndrome sounds kind of cool. Though I imagine people would keep their distance.. Smile
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 03:40 pm
@Cyracuz,
We need to get the old slide ruler out oh **** I am old I mean a scientific calculator and run the numbers of the average energy contain in human body fat and then figure out the energy needed to turn a human body that is mainly water into ash.

Kind of like getting a candle to burn when by weight it is mainly water.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 03:49 pm
@Cyracuz,
By the way why would this if real be happening to humans alone?

No stories of cats or dogs or pigs or horses or other primates going up in smoke all by themselves?
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 03:50 pm
@BillRM,
Couldn't the water also turn into acetone? Acetone has both H and O in it's chemical formula.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 03:59 pm
@Cyracuz,
Water is H2O and it take energy to break that bond a hell of a lot of energy and it surely does not yield energy when the bond is broken.

920 kj/mol of energy.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 04:16 pm
@BillRM,
It was known from chemistry that the body is able to prepare triple bonded nitrogen compounds (triazos) which are self igniting and can sustain a short amount of combustion. After that, should the temp reach a criticallevel, the human body (in its less healthy mode, is composwd of fatty acids.. Fatty acids will burn and provide a "wick" effect. As Izzy stated, there are several hundred examples of SHC in the world ( all of them in areas where obesity exists).
The "Skeptic" has done an incomplete analyses of the issue . The numbers of SHC are rre among populations but, generally, where there have been occurences, the victims hd been relatively obese nd were possibly not too keen about personal hygiene (Diazo compounds can be generated by reaction of dried urine and specific salts).

Most real examples of SHC show that the body is burned completely and extermities are usually left untouched. So there would be apile of ash that traces the body outline fairly cloisely and the head, hands and feet would remain almost untouched.
Its rare but there are occureneces that dont yiled to skeptical dismissal. Sorry Bill, but just keep taking daily showers and youll be ok, even if youre big as a house.

The acetone occurences , Id venture a guess , would be the results of metabolism processes in people who are diabetic. Ketones and aldehydes are produced by diabetics .

Dont worry, be happy.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 04:25 pm
@farmerman,
Farmerman beside the point of how you get an ignition in the first place I had a problem with the body containing enough "fuel" in fat or whatever in total to get rid of a hundred pounds/12 gallons plus of water or so and burn the bones to ashes.

In a close small room like a bedroom every surface should be damp also it you do get the energy budget needed from the body to deal with the water.

I still need to run the numbers but .........
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 04:41 pm
@BillRM,
look up diazo salts or tri-ammonium compounds. The body cn exude these things and ignition may be a rare occurence , but its still possible.
I havent heard of ANY examples in a few years now so is our sensitivity to diabetes nd hygiene more extreme today than in the past?
Dont know ,
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 05:52 pm
@farmerman,
For all his protestations about his scientific way of thinking, Bill is one of those people who conveniently ignores evidence that doesn't fit in with his preconceptions.
 

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