Time simply does not exist

But that is my point, I don't think you are grasping it. Maybe a visual will help.

Let's take a block of space, a long cylinder of space. By all means it is straight and even with no pockets of denser or less dense areas. Even by all means. A photon traveling from one side to the other travels in a straight line according to the outside observer.

Now lets take a dense intense piece of matter, say a black hole that is parallel to this cylinder of space. It bends and distorts and curves in the presence of this black hole. Now it is not inside but next to it. Bent like a bar curved around the black hole.

Fire that same photon and from the outside observer the light would appear to be curving around the blackhole even though it is actually traveling in a straight line in the space. According to the photon it is traveling straight but since the space is curved it appears to be bent from an observer outside the bent space.

This is actually what we observe when we look at objects that are far away. We assume that photons leave their source and travel perfectly straight but they don't. They actually weave and bend and curve when entering denser parts of space. These denser parts of space are caused by matter.

The fundamental issue for Maturana is that a living system must survive by its adaptations, not merely "learn", or "explore". That is why the concept of "information" is irrelevant or a secondary luxury over and above survival. Wrong restructuring=death, NOT wrong choice=disadvantage.

I perfectly get the reason for your point of view and why you think what you think but that doesn't change the fact that even if in the same plane with the same curvature two parallel observers travelling at different speeds would experience different relations with time...starting with their internal clocks...the ageing relative to each other would vary...of course each observing its own ageing wouldn't notice anything...the problem starts when they look at each other, or at some third event...

I see...let me give a twist to those words Fresco...a robot that learned to avoid better falling down the stairs survives better and it does so by exploring...you should admit there is an obsession with Bio systems particularly with us that it is not healthy...an intelligent system as you like to put it informs itself of what it needs..."noise" (what it doesn't need) is discarded...like above with Krumple value also is relative to our own perspective and specificity...

Sure they would. If you had two roads. One straight and another curvy and winding. Placed two clocks, one for each traveler and put them on their journy down these roads, you would see a descrepency in their times. You can't think of them as traveling the same distance and you can't think of them as having different paths.

The point is the curvy path is due to the warpage and bending of space which is causing the time problem. They essentially travel the same distance yet when you compare the two clocks they are off but why? Because the distance the one who is placed in the bent space experiences a longer journey compared to that of the person in the normal space.

It has nothing to do with velocity but it appears to because velocity is part of the equation.

Here is another way to look at it.

Flight. Do you know how flight works? The speed of the air traveling over the wing and the speed of the air traveling under the wing actually creates a pocket of less dense air but why? Because the traveling of the air over the wing is trying to match that of the air traveling under the wing, but the air traveling over the wing has to travel a longer distance. To compensate for this distance the air tries to cheat by traveling in a straight line over the upper wing which causes a pocket or a sort of vacuum (sure not a perfect vacuum but definately less dense air). This causes lift because the planes wing is pulled or sucked into this vacuum.

I believe that is exactly what light is doing when it travels in and out of dense or less dense space. However; since we can't observe these pockets of space we assume that time is the factor not the space. I object and say time is constant, space is not and space is the cause behind all time dilations.

Edit: I need to spell it out a bit more.

Just like with flight. The two clocks show different times because one clock was trying to compesate but can't. It is forced to travel the same distance as the other clock but can't. This is due to the fact that one of the clocks is traveling through more warped space than the other. The journey is longer for one even thought they appear to be equal, they are not. In otherwords a time vacuum. We assume it is a problem of time but really it is a problem of space. Since we can observe time we assume it is time but we can't observe space and this is why we miss it.

You are enmeshed in a concept of teleological "consciousness" (or "curiosity"). This is an anthropomorphic secondary process to "life" per se and therefore for Maturana cannot account for the primary process. Machines are artifacts evoked by the secondary process. They cannot mimic the Gestalt of the primary process, even if they can seem to mimic some of its "observed" secondary sub-systems.

1 . the example I offer you assumed same parallel space same type of curvature as a given and different speeds as axiom, the effect still happens...now please analyse it and reply...I already said I perfectly understood why you came to think it, but its an illusion...plus I don't believe the math guys would not take non euclidean space curvature in account...you can do those measurements in the solar system, which is reasonably known in terms of transiting objects affecting the curvature of space you don't need to look at deep interstellar or intergalactic space to see it...

2 . Yes I am familiar with the workings of flight, I even use Flight Simulator X to take some true to life expansion pack Boeing's for a spin...you cant imagine how long it takes to do it well...if you like flight get it !

...you see ? I was expecting that, again you are forgetting working functions is all we need...what "works" is enough...you may not know the correct sequencing of first order but the functions are the same...you can capture the functions, as whatever their form is, gives away how they function with us which is all we need to know...

In fact I am thinking of a crazy example right now...

Imagine a windy planet where the wind was perfectly constant blowing equally all over the surface...it is possible to imagine a sensory organ in an alien species working like an eye but with sound waves sensible to pressure as function for mapping a visual like sound image of the objects in such a world...you see ? its the damn function that matters as wind would work like light for carrying information on the surface of objects through sound pitch!

I apologise. I wasn't trying to insult your intellect. I was only trying to use it as an example. But it is only the basis for my argument and not the actual argument. I would like to take it a step further now that I see you understand my position.

I want to bring up absolute zero velocity. That might sound absurd but humor me for a minute. I want to take the theory of general relativity in the extreme in the opposite way which I think absoltely NO physicist do.

Let me try to make it very basic once again just so you know I am not talking nonsense.

The closer to the speed of light you get, the slower time progresses for you. In otherwords if you were on a ship traveling near the speed of light time for you would actually slow down relative to someone who was traveling slower. This is the example of the twin paradox problem.

Lets take this to an extreme and go the opposite direction. What do I mean?

I am saying the earth is moving through space. I don't simply mean orbiting the sun. I mean that the entire galaxy is moving which is pulling the earth along with it because the earth is tidally locked to the sun which the sun is tidally locked to the galaxy. The entire galaxy is moving through space at roughly three hundred thousand kilometers a second. Which is incredibly fast.

What if we were to get into a spaceship and negate this velocity? We would basically escape the lock of the galaxy and leave it behind. It would speed away at three hundred thousand kilometers a second. What if we could have an absolute zero velocity relative to space itself?

What I am saying is that to all objects in space we have no tidal lock. We are not orbiting anything. We are not being drug along along by any bodies. We have an absolute velocity relative to space of zero. As the theory would go time would speed up. Since we are the furthest away from the velocity of light we can get time would actually speed up.

I have calcualated this time increase by using the speed of light and the velocity of our movement through space tidally locked to the galaxy. You might think that it would be an insignificant increase but it is very dramatic. It turns out that over three hundred and eightyone hours would pass for every second on earth. In otherwords if you could travel at a zero velocity relative to all objects in space time would actually slip by much faster than it currently is. But this doesn't make sense.

What is the consequence of this finding? It would mean light traveling through zero velocity space would travel less distance. But we know that can't happen. Light travels at a constant distance because the speed of light is constant. So how could it travel less distance? There is only one way to fix this problem. That space itself is NOT locked to time like we have assumed it has been. The only way to fix this problem is to make time a constant and that space itself must be culprit.

If you say I am wrong, then the speed of light must slow down or travel less distance in a zero velocity section of space-time. This would mean all our calcuations on how light travels through the vacuum of space are wrong. I would never suggest that but instead I would say it is a product of mass that is causing the problem. This is where the solution lies. If not then we must address the speed of light through the vacuum of space. Meaning that light traveling through space actually travels less distance than we now assume it does.

You can do all the work I did by using general relativity in reverse to Einstein's original thought experiment. I just took it in extreme the opposite way which no one does and tried to see what the consequences of it would be. As it turns out in my opinion space and time can not be linked as they are thought to be.

But even if you were stationary events around you would have different speeds in relation to you, so from their perspective your light clock would be moving...from their several distinct points of view you would be the one moving and thus being subject to distinct time variations for every observer looking at you...time variation is never noticed in relation to yourself, you always think are the others who are varying...

True. According to your postion things seem normal. It is only the observer from another point somewhere who views you as behaving differently. According to my theory here an observer on earth watching a person with absolutely zero velocity would be moving incredibly fast. Do you now see the consequence of this problem? If we observe objects in deep space, they should be moving incredibly fast if they are nearto absolute zero velocity.

And they would ! But the distance between you and them is so huge it seams they barely move...a trillion kilometres would seam a dot distance away from your previous observation...that dot away would still perfectly scale time inflation from your perspective...

...lets say you both perfectly coincide in start looking at each other 20 light years distance away, each in its own ship exactly 20 years ago, one moving and the other stopped the problem would still manifest in the same way...

...say you were moving and he was stopped, events on his behaviour would come to you in slow motion, as the constance of your speed would place the arrival of each event through light speed, at further constantly progressing distance...the speed of light being absolute, would vary the function of relative motion you would "experience" in his behaviour (I know he actually is stopped) thus your observation of him would still be subjected to time inflation...

I am not sure I use 'information' in the same way as Fil does, but I get a kind of chicken or egg situation when I think about it. Language is about sharing information, but do we have language because information is being shared and language inevitably forms, or is language the origin of information? Perhaps the concept 'information' is evoked by us living systems, but are we individual living systems, or are we moving parts of a greater living system?

You are on the right track.
"Information" can be generally defined as that which triggers the direction of "choice" between alternatives. In common parlance, those "alternatives" are not life and death issues for the individual, so they are outside the range of issues which Maturana seeks to encapsulate for the individual . In other words "languaging" for him is akin to a type of "social dancing" (structural coupling) which serves to co-ordinate and perpetuate macro-systems (social groups) in their survival mode. To me, it is like equating language to the chemical signals involved in the coherence of a hive of insects.

I take it 'language' means more than just 'words and their meanings' in this context?

Yes. The systemic functionality of say "the bee dance" in co-ordinating insect behavior is transcendent of any particular local interpretation (contextual meaning) involving location of nectar. Once we begin to move beyond language as "representation" (recently discredited) we begin to consider themes like "the power of oratory", "Holy Writ", hypnotic suggestion, taboo words.....etc. etc as being philosophically significant. (Note for example the Foucault analysis of the birth announcement "It's a Girl" as indicating naive acquiescence of a covert chauvinistic social reality. i.e. What constitues "the information" in that birth announcement ? ).

...it seams important to remember the info regarding no constant speed as time dilation wont work if speed is not constant...in the twins paradox example, an inversion in direction would change constance in speed from the returning travelling twin...

Let me post a didactic video extremely simple to grasp on that regard: