7
   

Applying the definition of marriage to real life application.

 
 
Val Killmore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 12:54 pm
@parados,
It seems you're replying to my new definition without even a thought, but in a haze of some preconceived notion.

Argument require premise and conclusion.
I was simply questioning the common definition of marriage flung around by gay proponents in the streets.

And I was trying to just get it into words of what they really mean.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:00 pm
@Val Killmore,
Val Killmore wrote:
the common definition of marriage flung around by gay proponents in the streets


what streets? what proponents?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:02 pm
@Val Killmore,
Val Killmore wrote:
I think that is what people think of in their head when they think about marriage, although I don't know why they are not expressing it in words.


I suspect people are expressing themselves, but you're either having trouble understanding them or you don't like what you're hearing.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:03 pm
@Val Killmore,
Let's start from here again..

Val Killmore wrote:

I'll make my definition, as the grand finale.
However, I have a thought to convey regarding marriage as a whole.

When someone defines marriage to include same-sex unions, then something that today seems repugnant can years down the road be considered acceptable. 50 years ago, very few people would ever have said same-sex marriage was acceptable. If incestuous relationships are today considered repugnant, what happens if in 50 years there are enough and people become more "open-minded" to the point where incest is considered different, but acceptable?

I say that we need a definition of what marriage is that works with consistency.
Which most of y'all gay proponents are oblivious, and can't even think straight, and go on to talk about economics of finding a mate, government tax deducts, and other benefits?
Is that even relevant to ethics, parados, and Lustig?
This is about legality, not ethics. While some people might think it unethical to marry a first cousin, several states make it legal. Other states have to recognize that marriage then. The entire point of marriage according to the state is it doesn't grant some ethical status to a relationship. It grants a legal one which comes with economic and other benefits. If you ignore the benefits then you ignore the idea of state recognized marriage.
Quote:

I advocate the term marriage must mean something. The term "marriage" must be represented as something of an institution in this country that must stand the test of time.

Gay proponents who make the argument that an adult should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults, without prosecution, persecution, or discrimination is plainly not taking into account all scenarios, and just hetero and homo.
You are free to make that argument but it's only an opinion. First of all, why should anyone have to take everything into account. If we did that, we as humans would never take any action.
Quote:

So I thought of marriage and what it leads: family.
Now, I've thought about this, and it's a logical possibility (A logically possible proposition is one that can be asserted without implying a logical contradiction) for two brothers or two sisters to have a couple relationships of love and of consent. Now when they adopt a child, the child can't comprehend the family structure. Mother or father is also uncle or aunt?
Why wouldn't the child be able to understand the relationship? The child would see both as a parent. It is only your outside looking in that creates confusion for the child. If I married my 14th cousin on my mother's side, how does that create confusion for my child? We would both be parents. The rest really has little in that relationship.

Quote:

So a better definition: A union of love between two consenting adult that has the potential for a family with a clear power differentiating structure.

No incest possible, and plain and simple.
Except has been told you by more than one person, your definition isn't clear to anyone but yourself. No child is going to be confused by parents no matter what their relationship is. Are children confused by parents of different races? religions? And yet some people would claim it was clearly confusing to the child.
0 Replies
 
Val Killmore
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:05 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
Marriage is about money and control.


Isn't that a feminist approach to marriage?


While many feminists have focused on the reform of marriage, others have argued for its abolition.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:06 pm
@Val Killmore,
Val Killmore wrote:

It seems you're replying to my new definition without even a thought, but in a haze of some preconceived notion.


MY response was in the haze of your preconceived notion. You are not clearly explaining your meanings so I have to guess at what you mean.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:12 pm
@parados,
By the way Val...

If your "power" structure prevents confusion let me ask you about this scenario -

Can a man marry his brother's wife and adopt his brother's child?
Val Killmore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:20 pm
@parados,
Ok let me as best as possible try to explain my "notion."

Marriage is between two individuals because this is the unit able to have a relationship without favoritism with one partner over the other; permanence is required to give children a lifelong family. As I said that accounts which do not ground marriage in this purpose have no theoretical reason to resist the extension of marriage to polygamy, or incest since there is no way morally to distinguish these different relationships from polygamy or incest.

I don't think any child will be able to comprehend with the insane warping of primary relationships.


You are focusing on the politics of marriage, and I'm focusing on marriage and morals.
Val Killmore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:27 pm
@parados,
Yes only if the brother did not have children.
If the man's brother and brother's wife had children, then no. By my definition at least.
But you'll say, legally it can be done, huh?
I guess you may have stumped me, I guess back to step 1.

Morally, if the brother is alive, it seems wrong; if the wife is a widow, then maybe ok.
0 Replies
 
Val Killmore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:32 pm
@parados,
Is that even ethical?

Just because there is no law stopping you doesn't mean you have to do it.

Won't it cause injury to loved ones and family?
parados
 
  4  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:32 pm
@Val Killmore,
Quote:
You are focusing on the politics of marriage, and I'm focusing on marriage and morals.

Which means you are NOT focusing on state sanctioned marriage. So your argument is completely without merit then.
Val Killmore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:36 pm
@parados,
Not necessarily. Morals is as important as state politics.

Marriage is a legal contract, although an irregual one over the years.

As the idea of it as a contract has taken hold, my question is as how far its obligations should be subject to individual choice.

The contractual view of marriage implies that spouses can choose marital obligations to suit their interests. However, to some, the value/ definition of marriage consists precisely in the limitations it sets on individual choice in the service of a greater good.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:37 pm
@Val Killmore,
Ethical? Under biblical law you were required to marry your brother's widow.


It's legal under current law.

A man can marry a woman, divorce her and then she can marry his brother under current law. There is nothing to prevent it.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:38 pm
@Val Killmore,
Quote:
Marriage is a legal contract
Which means it has NOTHING to do with morals.
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:39 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
You are focusing on the politics of marriage, and I'm focusing on marriage and morals.

Which means you are NOT focusing on state sanctioned marriage. So your argument is completely without merit then.


Exactly correct. Marriage has absolutely nothing to do with morals except insofar as it is a legally binding contract. Violation of the terms of the contract may have moral, as well as legal, consequences but that is a personal problem and in no sense the business of the courts or the legislatures.

This is probably where I made my mistake. I assumed we were talking about marriage as the word is commonly used and understood. Turns out Val Killjoy is actually talking ethics and morality here, totally different subjects from marriage.
0 Replies
 
Val Killmore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:40 pm
@parados,
Really?

I thought that the thought that marriage has a special moral status and entails fixed moral obligations.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:41 pm
@Val Killmore,
Quote:
I thought that the thought that marriage has a special moral status and entails fixed moral obligations.


ROFLMAO.........
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:42 pm
@parados,
Move over, parados. I'm having an absolute paroxysm here on the floor. Mr. Green Drunk Drunk Drunk
0 Replies
 
Val Killmore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:49 pm
@parados,
Very puzzled by your laughter.

Hear me out on this:

What about parental duties?

What about promise to love?

What about voluntary obligations that may come with marriage, such as being committed and protecting your child and providing a home?

What about commitment?

All is with respect to morality....



0 Replies
 
Val Killmore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2012 01:52 pm
So if you're married to a spouse don't you have the moral obligation to not cheat on them, even if no one finds out about it?
 

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