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What is the ultimate form of Existence?

 
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 01:15 pm
@Rickoshay75,
Etherman asks: "What do you think lies at the heart of creation? Is it time? Space? Light? Energy? "

Most likely something like (compared to your other options) ENERGY. But who knows?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 01:33 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
But who knows?


Aha! Wink
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 02:02 pm
Quote:
ENERGY. But who knows?
I had understood when you squeeze it all down into a tiny space it becomes something uniform, but maybe with the potential for later differentiation into energy, matter, etc
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 03:56 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
I require a condition of infinite mass and zero diameter, a sort of nothingness, but to skirt various paradox and contradiction assert its duration to be zero


Key words; "I require". We make all these demands on things to conform to our way of understanding. It is easy to forget this and assume that our frames are the only valid frames.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 04:12 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
It is easy to forget this and assume that our frames are the only valid frames.
True Cyr but we do our best working with what we’re given. My frame suffers little paradox or contradiction since it doesn’t require a supernatural creator nor beginning nor an end, merely accounting for the state of everything at all times as simply the way it has to be; while I haven’t suggested anything at all that hasn’t been broached on a perfectly serious basis by somebody else much smarter than I. I simply tie things together in a more coherent fashion

Or I think I do anyhow

I’m hardly satisfied however since I readily concede that the mechanism by which all the constants seem to have been “adjusted” to permit the evolution of the humanoid is not at all clear

…while the idea that it can be accounted for through the observation that maybe other Universes don’t work by the same rules so given anything that can happen, eventually will, is very unsatisfying to the intuition

Where Reason and Science have petered out, our subliminal--however unreliable in everyday affairs--being all we have left

Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 04:22 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
merely accounting for the state of everything at all times as simply the way it has to be


"The way it has to be" might be a matter of fashion, or perhaps our capacity to create possible and plausible explanations. Those who believe in gods often justify their belief with "it's just how it has to be, nothing else makes sense". This does not mean we should stop asking questions, but it does mean that we perhaps not learning about what we thought we were learning about. Any exploration is exploration of self and of mind.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 04:52 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Aha! Frank knows

that he doesn't know.

That's knowledge.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 06:03 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
Aha! Frank knows

that he doesn't know.

That's knowledge.


Aha!
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2012 06:32 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
This does not mean we should stop asking questions,
Oh by no means Cyr, while looking into the idea should be encouraged. For instance it might prove the constants are the value they are because they depend upon one another. This prop sounds highly speculative until you consider various aspects of Einsteinian Relativity, where the conclusions considered one at a time seem absurd but then it’s shown that they all depend upon one another so that if Relativity is to be believed it’s the way it is simply because it has to be that way. Deny one apparently absurd phenom and you find that without it the others couldn't work
0 Replies
 
Rickoshay75
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 12:59 pm
@Etherman50,
Etherman50 wrote:

What do you think lies at the heart of creation? Is it time? Space? Light? Energy? Archetypes? Or,do you think that it is something purely abstract and/ or inexplicable? What say you? MR


Some time in the future, when the sun is too hot to bear, all life will die. Just like the dinosaurs.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 01:25 pm
@Rickoshay75,
Quote:
What do you think lies at the heart of creation? Is it time? Space? Light? Energy? Archetypes?
For what it’s worth, not too much around here to be sure, I’d guess creation to be an ongoing affair entailing all those parameters

Quote:
What is the ultimate form of Existence?
If the question were more explicit we’d get more intelligible replies

Quote:
Or,do you think that it is something purely abstract and/ or inexplicable?

Given a rock, say, near one end of the concrete-abstract spectrum and God near the other, I’d guess the “ultimate form”, whatever that means, to be somewhere betwixt

It does seem intuitively there’s more to the Entire Megillah than particles randomly and meaninglessly bouncing off one another; that the constants have been “adjusted” within a fraction of one percent in some instances, specifically to permit evolution and that without the humanoid the entire operation appears even more inexplicable

Quote:
Some time in the future, when the sun is too hot to bear, all life will die. Just like the dinosaurs.
That’s been pretty well established but how does it help answer the question
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 01:41 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
"The way it has to be" might be a matter of fashion, or perhaps our capacity to create possible and plausible explanations.
The question “Why are things the way they are instead of some other way?” is most intriguing and my guess is that the simply can’t be any other way because for instance they might all be interdependent so a change in any one would entail paradox or contradiction. But the way things are depend in very little measure on us. They won’t change much after the next nuclear war when we’re all wiped out

Quote:
Those who believe in gods often justify their belief with "it's just how it has to be, nothing else makes sense".
Yes, no, even those of us who don’t believe might agree

Quote:
This does not mean we should stop asking questions,
I should hope not

Quote:
but it does mean that we perhaps not learning about what we thought we were learning about.
Part of the reason for that is our narrow-mindedness. In a forum of this sort for instance if you dare challenge the conventional view of things you will be attacked mercilessly. For instance when I suggested the speed of light might be viewed, if not as infinite, nonetheless much greater than c. No effort was made to address the reasons I gave

Quote:
Any exploration is exploration of self and of mind.
Agreed but our conclusions shouldn’t depend upon our method
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 02:20 pm
@dalehileman,
I think no one has a problem on you suggesting the speed of light might be infinite...instead people have a problem when you suggest so without so much offering an hypothetical logical model even if theoretical to back your suggestion up...its simply annoying !
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 03:08 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
think no one has a problem on you suggesting the speed of light might be infinite…...its simply annoying !
Then my most profound apologies
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 03:21 pm
@dalehileman,
You seam more suited for a poetry forum, or maybe literature or something of the sort...your apologies are a display of typical 70's annoying pseudo politeness !
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 03:50 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
You seam more suited for a poetry forum, or maybe literature or something of the sort…
Why thank you Al….

Quote:
your apologies are a display of typical 70's annoying pseudo politeness !
I had no idea such behavior was peculiar to the ’70’s but it’s interesting you should so assert

I have noted a modern tendency however—perhaps after all not limited to the U.S.—where so many of us seem terribly angry at all times about nearly everything, no matter how innocent

Furthermore, and again forgive me Al, but such individual seems drawn to the forum, which gives him such opportunities to get mad. It’s very OT but this very observation might deserve a new thread or OP
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 04:12 pm
@dalehileman,
Whatever, if it is not intentional be straightforward then...don't apologise when clearly it is not what you mean...modern tendency to criticism pushes the boundaries, rather take that then polite stagnation...
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 04:17 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I’ve attempted to summarize my confusion in this thread

http://able2know.org/topic/191858-1

. in the hope that it might attract those in the know who might act as go-between or at least demonstrate that it’s all semantic
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 10:35 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
...to thick and consistent, plus I hate walnuts cream...now an Häagen-Dazs makes my day... Laughing
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jun, 2012 12:53 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I too am an ice-cream lover Al, so at least we have that in common

I hasten however to concede your view of the Universe is far beyond mine but I am wondering whether we might have deviated from the track, whether our discussion of nothingness for instance actually bears on what form of existence might be considered “ultimate"
0 Replies
 
 

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