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Sabretooth evolution

 
 
rosborne979
 
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Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2004 10:07 am
Ok, Farmerman, I think what you're saying is that the primary component of variation, against which selection works, is not mutation events, but combinations of alleles in a population which have (active or inactive) mutations riding in them.

Ultimately, mutation is the root cause of all the component pieces of the genome (going all the way back to self replicative mollecules), but it's the combination of, and activation of these genes which comprise the majority of the differentiation which leads to different species. The implication is that there is tremendous potential for variation built in the genetic structure of every mammal, *without* having to rely on new mutation for new structures (which is what I was assuming before).

In the case of sabre teeth, the root gene (or genes) for this are buried deep in mammalian history (thus the spread through through the various Genus, such as marsupial to feline), and become expressed when they happen to converge by chance due to mixing. These chance expressions are then honed by selection to cause an increase in allele frequency in a population (which is the definition of evloution), and within that new population, there is now an even greater chance that associated genes for even larger teeth will arise in the remaining combinations.

If this is the case, it would explain why mice and chimps and humans are so similar genetically, because it's the combinations and activation of genes which matter, not the simple presence of the genes themselves.

It might also explain the growth curve (replicative mollecule, single cell, multi-cell, plant, animal, etc) which the history of life on Earth shows, because as the genome gets larger, it carries with it all the tools (past mutations) for generating lots of variation (with natural selection waiting for it)

Does this make sense? Am I on the right track to what you were talking about? Or did I miss the point and come up with something else? Smile

Best Regards,
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farmerman
 
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Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 06:20 am
good summation rosborne. Im fascinated by the processes of convergence in distinct orders. Why is sabretoothness a good solution to stalking hunters.
I think that sabretoothness in felines is a trait , more recessive now , that could be awakened if environmental conditions present themselves (and without human interference)
Yes, the great similarity of genomes among species does argue for diversity within the genome itself. Mayr has always espoused this and , by hisreferences , so did Gould.
The accumulation of genetic variations(includinng mutations0 to reflect some morphological differences or the statistical "centering" of a trait has, according to some, taken about 20 generations to accomplish .I dont have any opinion about rates, other than that "punctuated equilibrium" isnt as favored a concept as it used to be since findings about whale evolution in the 90s and in brachiopod evolution, paleontologists have found that intermediate forms have been known about all along it was just that the field investigations never closely recorded correlations of the environments in which they found specimens. So, theyve actually seen that there were more intermediate forms than previously thought.
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rosborne979
 
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Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 09:50 am
Well, I think I learned something out of all this. I never realized that such tremendous mutational diversity was buried in the genome just waiting to be expressed when the right combinations of alleles happen to form.

I always thought that each change in morphoplogy was the result of a new mutation. But that idea had problems with it, which is what I had detected (but was unable to explain). The idea of diversity within the genome makes much more sense.

Did everyone else already know this? Have I just been missing it all these years, or is this aspect of evolutionary theory not very obvious in most of the presentations of the theory. This seems like a pretty important aspect of the theory to be neglected from "up front" presentation.

Thanks everyone,
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patiodog
 
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Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 12:10 pm
Definitely not present in most lay presentations of the subject, and not something I'd ever thought a whole lot about. Thanks, rosborne (and f-man).
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farmerman
 
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Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 12:24 pm
most people calls me the F -U man
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patiodog
 
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Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 12:42 pm
Hmmm... What about, "Look at that f'er, man."
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Diane
 
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Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 01:24 pm
Sometimes I read threads just for interest, especially when I have nothing to contribute. In this case I would like to throw something out that you may not have thought of--the generation of mutations in humans because we tend to take care of those who can't take care of themselves.

Both my older brothers have Fragile X Syndrome. It is an inheritable form of mental retardation with other symptoms that include acting out behaviors and, sometimes, homosexuality.

Here in Denver, there is one of the leading researchers in Fragile X, called Dr. Randi Hagerman. When her office called me with the information that my 68 year old bother had been tested and found to have Fragile X, she said that there were still many things they didn't know, including the possibility that it somehow was related to homosexuality. My brother is gay.

However, both my older brothers have Fragile X. One is high functioning and the other is fairly low functioning. One has acting out behaviors and the other doesn't.

Obviously, most homosexuals do not have mental retardation, just as most prodigies (musical, mathematical) do not have autism, even though many people with autism have savantism.

Not knowing anything about genetics, this seems to follow the argument that genetic anomalies contain many factors that may or may not be advantageous. Perhaps the human population would provide a better population for research, because, at least in most societies, those with genetic defects do not die out.

Just a thought from someone with NO knowledge of genetics.
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patiodog
 
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Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 04:39 pm
Quote:
Not knowing anything about genetics, this seems to follow the argument that genetic anomalies contain many factors that may or may not be advantageous.


The commonly cited example of this is the fact that carriers of sickle-cell are more resistant to malaria than "normals," but I'm not sure if this is what you're going for, exactly...
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rosborne979
 
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Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 12:54 pm
farmerman wrote:
good summation rosborne. Im fascinated by the processes of convergence in distinct orders. Why is sabretoothness a good solution to stalking hunters.


As far as the trait itself (sabretooth) goes, I would guess that it is more of a sexual selection mechanism than a functional one (though I think it can have both uses).

Just like modern lions, I would guess that Sabretooth cats may have relied on the females and young males for the rough and tumble part of the hunt, with the males driving the prey first and then possibly finishing it off once it was subdued and tired.

Male baboons have fearsome canines, and they are used extensively for display. I can picture the male sabretooth cats doing the same thing when competing for mates. Having large canines makes you very fearsome looking, so it probably has an intimidating effect.
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farmerman
 
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Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 02:39 pm
I wonder. . Since the body style of the sabretooth was so stocky and the fossils in the la brea show back bones and cheek bones of bison and other megatheres with huge punctures that match a sabretooths canines, Some paleoethology guys have speculated that the sabretooths were opportunistic feeders on larger fauna and maybe they used these huge teeth to inflict quick mortal punctures so that there wasnt a lot of busted up sabretooths who hung on while the prey convulsed or took them for a dangerous ride.
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rosborne979
 
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Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 02:53 pm
farmerman wrote:
I wonder. . . huge punctures that match a sabretooths canines


Maybe they had a dual purpose; stabbing weapon as well as sexual showpiece. The combination would seem to strengthen the selection factor.
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patiodog
 
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Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 06:40 pm
Doesn't sexual selection generally favor sexual dimorphism? Or did I imagine this?
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farmerman
 
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Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 06:56 pm
hhmmmm, Im drawin a blank here dog. I dont think that sabreteeth can be classed as dimorphism but , as rosborne postulates more as difunctionalism.

There are many examples of some fairly useless body chochkies
which are "major turn ons" to the babes. but i cant recall any dimorphism outside of sessile seafloor animals and some plants. Im full from supper so Im not the brightest bulb right now.
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patiodog
 
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Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 07:07 pm
No, my Q is -- is it likely that sexual selection favored big teeth when it was apparently equally expressed in males and females?
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farmerman
 
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Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 08:31 pm
good point.
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rosborne979
 
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Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 11:00 pm
patiodog wrote:
No, my Q is -- is it likely that sexual selection favored big teeth when it was apparently equally expressed in males and females?


*Was* it equally expressed in males and females? I don't remember reading this, but I could have missed it.
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patiodog
 
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Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 11:09 pm
I assumed it was as I've never seen a fossil of a non-sabretoothed sabretooth -- but, then, I haven't been to La Brea in twenty years.
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patiodog
 
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Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 11:12 pm
Here's something. LINK

Quote:
In this paper, we estimate level of sexual dimorphism in skull length, canine tooth size, and lower molar length for two extinct species, the dire wolf, Canis dirus, and the sabertooth cat, Smilodon fatalis. Three methods are employed to estimate sexual dimorphism: extrapolation from coefficients of variation, division of the sample about the mean, and finite mixture analysis. Results indicate that dire wolves were similar to most canids in their low level of sexual dimorphism, suggesting a pair-bonded breeding structure. Smilodon fatalis appears to have been significantly less dimorphic than living or fossil lions and more comparable to solitary living felids in canine and skull size dimorphism. Thus it seems unlikely that S. fatalis had a polygynous breeding structure like lions in which males compete intensely for access to females. Instead, if S. fatalis lived in groups, these would have been composed of a monogamous pair and their offspring from current and perhaps previous years.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 11:14 pm
Smilodon fatalis... really mean Cheshire cat...

<been reading along, veddy interesting discussion, thanks>
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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2004 04:08 am
rosborne979 wrote:
I always thought that each change in morphoplogy was the result of a new mutation. But that idea had problems with it, which is what I had detected (but was unable to explain). The idea of diversity within the genome makes much more sense.

Did everyone else already know this? Have I just been missing it all these years, or is this aspect of evolutionary theory not very obvious in most of the presentations of the theory. This seems like a pretty important aspect of the theory to be neglected from "up front" presentation.

Thanks everyone,



Look, I'll give you my personal view on this subject. With the qualifier that it is just personal.

Right, each time there is a new generation of a species (OK, not all species, but a lot) there is a huge divergence within the confines of the species. There is a range of variables that define what represents an individual of a species, they all can't be identical though. Many of these 'varients' are weeded out at conception or in the womb, the mix of genetic material does not represent a viable option and is self-aborted (personally I think that is part of the function of 'junk' DNA, at conception the genetic material is tested and tossed out when not viable).

Of the ones that are bought to birth, hatching, germination - they are immediately subjected to the rigours of their environment. This is NOT a function of the genome and only those the are a good 'fit' will survive long enough to reach adulthood. So, we have a range of bodily forms, being constantly matched against a changing enviroment. They genetic material itself is not actually changed by this experience, it just finds that the 'best' fit solution works. When the weather gets very cold, there are two options: grow lots of hair or move. All elephants have a degree of body hair, thus their will be a divergence between those that have more insulating hair and stay in the cold and those that just find that it's easier to stick to the tropical regions and stay bald. After a few thousand years, you have two species where there was formerly one. No mystery, as environmental conditions keep changing a swing to a totally ice-bound planet would favour hairy mammoths, the end of the Ice Age and the retreat of glaciation means the elephant is the 'winner'.
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