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Who would have been the Catholic ruler of England?

 
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 10:54 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
Assuming some Catholic claimant actually ascended to the throne after 1701, that very event is likely to have altered his/her choice of marriage partner or that of the offspring thereby changing all subsequent family tree details.


ok - so develop the new family tree - where would it have taken things - would the country have remained the same? great alternative "universe" question to base a novel on

the original post had an entertaining premise - shame it's headed into fussing and feuding land
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 10:55 am
@contrex,
contrex wrote:
You might as well ask who would be the President of the United States if the Confederacy had won the Civil War.


another good question for curious people
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 11:01 am
@ehBeth,
Joe, in fact, answered your question.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 11:04 am
@Setanta,
nah - that's a wikipedia thing - no imagination used at all

I think Fresco's point about different marriage choices being made is important (for the imaginary answer).
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 11:05 am
@ehBeth,
Where does imagination enter into it?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 11:10 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
I think Fresco's point about different marriage choices being made is important
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 11:29 am
@ehBeth,
OK, sure, if you say so.
0 Replies
 
nrs3b
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 11:37 am
Ok, suppose this. Suppose that the entire non-Catholic Royal Family of Great Britain dies all at once, like a "King Ralph" situation (if you haven't seen the movie, the entire royal family dies in a freak accident and John Goodman, an American, is the closest living heir). Suppose that there were some movement that wanted to restore Catholicism to the British monarchy. Who would they have to scour the family trees from the last Catholic monarch to find to take the crown? I'm just being hypothetical. I'm not that stupid.
nrs3b
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 11:43 am
@ehBeth,
It very may well have been the same president, considering that the United States of America would have had its president and the Confederate States of America would have had its president. Two different countries.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 11:45 am
@nrs3b,
nrs3b wrote:

Ok, suppose this. Suppose that the entire non-Catholic Royal Family of Great Britain dies all at once, like a "King Ralph" situation (if you haven't seen the movie, the entire royal family dies in a freak accident and John Goodman, an American, is the closest living heir). Suppose that there were some movement that wanted to restore Catholicism to the British monarchy. Who would they have to scour the family trees from the last Catholic monarch to find to take the crown? I'm just being hypothetical. I'm not that stupid.

Franz, duke of Bavaria
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 11:56 am
@joefromchicago,
Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria von Wittelsbach aka King Francis II.
Only as head of the House of Bavaria is "Duke of Bavaria" Wink

(His full title in Germany/Bavaria would be: Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria, Herzog von Bayern, Franken und in Schwaben, Pfalzgraf bei Rhein ['Duke of Bavaria, Franken and in Swabia, Count Palatine of the Rhin'].)
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 12:06 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria von Wittelsbach aka King Francis II.
Only as head of the House of Bavaria is "Duke of Bavaria" Wink

Technically correct, but since Franz hasn't been crowned King Francis II, he's still known as Franz, duke of Bavaria, just as George, elector of Hanover, wasn't called George I of Great Britain until he was crowned king.

Walter Hinteler wrote:
(His full title in Germany/Bavaria would be: Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria, Herzog von Bayern, Franken und in Schwaben, Pfalzgraf bei Rhein ['Duke of Bavaria, Franken and in Swabia, Count Palatine of the Rhin'].)

Well, his full title in Germany is "Herr von Bayern." Germany doesn't recognize noble titles.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 12:19 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
Well, his full title in Germany is "Herr von Bayern." Germany doesn't recognize noble titles.
We don't recognise noble titles, correct.
He personally thinks, his full name to be 'Herr Franz Herzog von Bayern'.
I think, it legally is "Herr von Bayern", as you said.


The Daily Telegraph wrote in April 2008:
Quote:
Gordon Brown is considering repealing the 1701 Act of Settlement as a way of healing a historic injustice by ending the prohibition against Catholics taking the throne.
But doing so would have the unforeseen consequence of making a 74-year-old German aristocrat the new King of England and Scotland.
Without the Act, Franz Herzog von Bayern, the current Duke of Bavaria, would be the rightful heir to the British Crown under the Stuart line.
[...]
As for the Duke of Bavaria himself, he is a reluctant heir.
The graduate in economics, who values his privacy, has always laughed off pretensions to the British crown and prefers to concentrate on his modern art collection.
Baron Marcus Bechtolsheim, the president of the administration of the Duke of Bavaria, said: "The Duke generally does not comment on this issue because he sees it as an entirely British question which does not concern him. And he regards it as a purely hypothetical issue.
"Even if this change in Britain happens, it won't change his attitude. All this interest in his opinion makes him smile because, really, he is very happy and satisfied with being the Duke of Bavaria."
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 12:21 pm
@Setanta,
You're the clown. I deliberately included it, in fact I wrote 'in fairness,' at the beginning of my sentence. I'm interested in giving the whole story, I'm not one of those that deliberately picks and mixes facts to prove their point. It would appear that you are.

In any event, like a lot of History this comes down to interpretation. You seem to view Lady Jane Grey's rule as completely separate from Mary's rule. I see it as a challenge to Mary's rule. Now the facts are out there, people can make their own minds up, as opposed to uncritically accepting your viewpoint.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 12:25 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Her name is a "clickable" link. Fool.


That's Father Topaz to you.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 12:44 pm
@izzythepush,
I do not and never have expected people to accept my viewpoint. I also have not "picked" or "mixed" any facts here--which makes you a liar, but i already knew that. You show your real purpose here a good deal more blatantly, now, though. This is it for me, find someone as foolish as you are to play this game with you.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 01:44 pm
@Setanta,
You were the one that got all lary when I pointed out the inaccuracy in your original statement, and you've continued that tone throughout. It's like you can't take criticism, and have something to hide. Have you ever disagreed with someone without insulting them?
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2012 10:51 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
You were very, very close. See Table 1 (p.7).
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 01:30 am
@Irishk,
I wonder how different it would be if it was just England and not Great Britain. Scotland is definitely more religious, there's still sectarian strife in Glasgow between Protestant and Catholic.

Thanks for the link.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 01:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
While we're at it, it's not just the question of Catholicism that throws up alternative monarchs.

Quote:
Britain's Real Monarch was a historical documentary presented by Tony Robinson first shown on Channel 4 on 3 January 2004. It has also been broadcast in America and Australia. The documentary discusses the descendants of George Plantagenet, Duke of Clarence and their claim to the throne of England.

The programme based its thesis on the centuries-old claim that Edward IV was illegitimate, born to Cecily Neville by an English archer while her husband, Richard, Duke of York was fighting elsewhere in France. The legitimacy of Edward IV was the subject of speculation at the time, and a document in Rouen Cathedral is presented by Dr. Michael Jones as indicating that Richard, Duke of York, and Cecily Neville were a hundred miles apart during the five-week period when Edward's conception must have occurred. This theorised illegitimacy of Edward would bar a rightful claim for himself and his descendants. This would have the effect of making the heirs of Richard and Cecily's son, George, Duke of Clarence, the "real" monarchs. Such a line would currently be represented by Michael Abney-Hastings, 14th Earl of Loudoun (born 1942), who emigrated to Australia in 1960, married, fathered five children, and currently lives in Jerilderie, New South Wales. Abney-Hastings is a committed Australian republican.
0 Replies
 
 

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