1
   

Which is the most universal human characteristic?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 04:41 pm
More or less my answer, Ind., except that i would have used a term such as self interest. The problem with the question as stated in the excerpt quoted by Husker is that the author's phrasing of the question presumes that fear or laziness can be the only possible answers. I also find it over simplistic insofar as it does not account for pathology, social restriction, lack of opportunity, or host of other reasons which would "keep people from reaching anywhere near their real potential." The assertion that Greeks three thousand years ago were as "advanced" as are contemporary humans is a ridiculous statement, absent a definition of "advanced;" and in consideration that homo sapien sapien has been around for many millenia, and that it is therefore a reasonable assumption that human intellect has had the same potential for that period. Altogether, I find the author's statement to be very idiosyncratic, and don't see any reason to accept a priori the author's inferential definitions, nor statements of the human condition.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 05:25 pm
let's say you could have all the power in the world... But never mate

Or that you could sleep and be lazy all you wanted... But never mate

I still think mating wins, because biology gears the entire life of the human being towards mating. (note: someone pointed out that animals do not think about sex all of the time, like humans. This is true, and a very good point, but in a way we are all just gametes looking for other gametes.)

Those not geared towards mating who are beneficial to society (ex: ants, bees) help others to mate & raise young.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 05:46 pm
...so explain celibacy then !
0 Replies
 
rufio
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 05:58 pm
Group selection, fresco. I don't particularly like biological explanations of human behavior, as there's relatively very little that's actually biological.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 06:34 pm
fresco wrote:
...so explain celibacy then !


"Those not geared towards mating who are beneficial to society (ex: ants, bees) help others to mate & raise young."

People who chose celibacy usually do so to devote themselves to somthing they deem to be higher, and in doing so they do works for society. Ex: monks. There are also variations within society, of course. Nature throws in "randomness" to allow for adaptation, so I am talking about general trends in most individuals within society.
I have often wondered if homosexuality serves a simiilar function to society as celibacy does. People who can lead full lives, without necessarily procreating. I also wonder how often instances of celibacy and homosexuality occur in an area with overpopulation (as compared to areas with a low population.)
0 Replies
 
Individual
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 12:45 am
Portal, I usually think along the same lines that celibacy and gay people both serve a very important role in society. However, I don't find that information relevant in this discussion. What you're saying is that they don't serve to mate, they help others raise children. But that would imply that the most universal human characteristic (or any biological trait) would be survival of the species.

So I'll alter my point: the most universal human characteristic is survival of the species. That includes mating, sacrifice, a quest for power, and fear. Therefore, laziness, as a detriment to society, is completely excluded and cannot be a universal trait.
0 Replies
 
rufio
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 01:56 am
On homosexuality and overpopulation - nature isn't perfect, it doesn't identify problems and then go about solving them. The only problems it can counteract are the ones that are so drastic that they eliminate themselves. Certainly, nature would not be able to move in a direction that decreases procreation, since for it that would be suicide, and it can't work outside of biological genetics. Even assuming that homosexuality is entirely genetic, how on earth would it be selected for? I suppose you might say that if one group that had a higher percentage of homosexuals survived while another died of overpopulation, that might work. But that would necessitate the annihilation of an entire population of people in incredible circumstances, and would result in very little actual change in the gene pool in that respect.

Individual, our environment has changed. We no longer need to be fit or tough or active to survive - we have hospitals who will bring back anyone, prevent everyone from dying early, medicine to ensure we all at least live until middle-age, or at least if we die before then, it's unrelated to genetics or disease. The only thing driving selection now is sexual selection which at the moment seems related to unhealthy habits like drinking, smoking, and anorexia.
0 Replies
 
Individual
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:23 am
Sorry relative, but your views are quite wrong.

First of all, homosexuality is not a problem at all.

Second of all, nature cannot be either perfect or imperfect, it just is what it is.

Third, people do die of disease and genetics at any point in their life, both fetal rejection and death from old age are caused by genetic abnormalities and disease.

Fourth, darwin's theories didn't mean that we need to be strong to live, they meant that we need to be healthy and able in order to reproduce. We do need to be able, otherwise we don't succeed and are thus less attractive to most people of the opposite sex (sad, but true).

Finally, drinking, smoking, and anorexia have very little to do with sexual selection. And I believe that you were citing anorexia as a negative cause for sexual selection but in reality it is quite the opposite.
0 Replies
 
rufio
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:39 am
I never said homosexuality was a problem. I was referring to overpopulation, which ps was suggesting was solved by homosexuality.

Fetuses dying of abnormalities are not going to cause populations to become extinct.

Actually, if you look at the media, those things are favored now, and have been favored in the past. You can't tell how healthy someone is from looking at them anyway, and as such it has never played a huge roll in sexual selection. We've moved on from the stage where biology determined everything, and we rely more on our constructed envorinments and social selections of various types. All animals rely on that somewhat, but humans most of all.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:46 am
self delusion
0 Replies
 
Individual
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:46 am
You missed the reason for me telling you about fetal rejection but it doesn't really matter...

Biology does determine who we have sex with, though (barring any sex committed under the influence of any drugs, and any trauma). There is proof that we are attracted to our genetic opposites in order to diversify our genes. On top of that, most people are attracted to others who have lots of power and success-there is a definite biological link to success and survival.
0 Replies
 
Individual
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:49 am
But let's get back to the point, any sex stimulated for whatever reasons is still a result of our need for survival of the species. So either way, that is our universal characteristic.
0 Replies
 
dupre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 10:00 am
The idea of "unique" is inherent in the definition of "characteristic."

After reading the definitions of "characteristic," "trait," and "quality," I'm still not certain exactly what is meant by "characteristic."

With that in mind, all humans are born with a few innate behaviors, about, what?, nine, I think. One is the startle: babies will hold their arms bent upward from their elbow and move their hands backward a bit when they hear a loud sound.

I think smiling is also on the list, so I vote for smiling. I seem to remember in an anthropology class that smiling is a cross-cultural human experience.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 10:50 am
rufio wrote:
On homosexuality and overpopulation - nature isn't perfect, it doesn't identify problems and then go about solving them. The only problems it can counteract are the ones that are so drastic that they eliminate themselves. Certainly, nature would not be able to move in a direction that decreases procreation, since for it that would be suicide, and it can't work outside of biological genetics. Even assuming that homosexuality is entirely genetic, how on earth would it be selected for? I suppose you might say that if one group that had a higher percentage of homosexuals survived while another died of overpopulation, that might work. But that would necessitate the annihilation of an entire population of people in incredible circumstances, and would result in very little actual change in the gene pool in that respect.


I was thinking of it as falling under evolutionary psychology, if such a thing exists. Or under some sort of self-adaptive sociology trait. Not passed on by genes directly (clearly) but somthing left to be adapted for, like how frogs can change gender or somthing like that.

rufio wrote:

Individual, our environment has changed. We no longer need to be fit or tough or active to survive - we have hospitals who will bring back anyone, prevent everyone from dying early, medicine to ensure we all at least live until middle-age, or at least if we die before then, it's unrelated to genetics or disease. The only thing driving selection now is sexual selection which at the moment seems related to unhealthy habits like drinking, smoking, and anorexia.


Hold on a sec. Who we -idolize- is not necessarily who we mate with. The supermodels aren't walking around popping out babies. Because people with higher levels of education and finance tend to plan their families, it is the poor, rural-living, and homeless who are popping out a good deal of the babies. I also wonder if such children could live if we did not have such a benevolent or rich society in the future. If they would be able to hunt, and work for themselves to sustain a family. I guess, in a way poverty and stupidity leads to theft, which is a socially parasitic way of staying afloat.
0 Replies
 
rufio
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 08:31 pm
I've never seen proof of any kind that genetics has anything to do with sexual selection other than to restrict it (hopefully) to the same species. I have no idea what you might be referring to with "genetic opposites" or if they even exist. A gene is a gene is a gene. Either you have it or you don't. You don't "negative" or "opposite" genes.

If something's socially inherited (a meme) than it has to be either part of the unconscious culture or part of a conscious teaching proccess - and I can't see how either of those things would result from overpopulation. Of course, like everything else, it would be driven by random chance - but that's a really random chance, and if homosexuality were encouraged it would have to be in just the right situations and mediation or the population would end up dying out.

The supermodels are only part of the social conditioning, which influences people to choose parteners that look like the supermodels. That's what's unhealthy.... I'm not saying that's absolute by any means, but it's the only trend I can really see consistently at work here.

The class destinction only works if we know how many of those poorer children survive. It's probably safe to say that just about every planned child lives to reproduce, but you probably can't say the same for poorer children who go hungry or don't have a place to live, or don't get the medicine they need. But maybe there enough being made that it doesn't make a significant difference. Who knows? I wouldn't say that only poverty and stupidity leads to theft though - the very rich steal much more than petty criminals a lot of the time, and that doesn't go to keeping anyone "afloat". Plus, people who steal generally do it to buy alcohol, in my experience, which is actually deterimental to health.

And when you consider that the very rich generally don't have sex with the very poor, you might even break society up into its three classes before you start looking at where evolution is taking us. We have, in America, several destinct populations living right necxt to each other that do their best to have nothing to do with one another. But I think that overall in all of these circumstances, environment plays a bigger role - we are all predisposed to die if we don't eat, don't get proper medical care, etc.
0 Replies
 
Individual
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 08:57 pm
Thanks for your insight, rufio, but you're just a tad off subject. What exactly does that information have to do with universal human characteristics?
0 Replies
 
rufio
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 12:07 am
Well, PS said something about mating being the universal human characteristic, because it was biological. I disagreed that biology really drives humans anymore, and we went off on a tangent.

It was good tangent though.
0 Replies
 
Individual
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 01:20 am
Yeah, fun stuff.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 10:08 am
rufio wrote:
I've never seen proof of any kind that genetics has anything to do with sexual selection other than to restrict it (hopefully) to the same species. I have no idea what you might be referring to with "genetic opposites" or if they even exist. A gene is a gene is a gene. Either you have it or you don't. You don't "negative" or "opposite" genes.

If something's socially inherited (a meme) than it has to be either part of the unconscious culture or part of a conscious teaching proccess - and I can't see how either of those things would result from overpopulation. Of course, like everything else, it would be driven by random chance - but that's a really random chance, and if homosexuality were encouraged it would have to be in just the right situations and mediation or the population would end up dying out.

The supermodels are only part of the social conditioning, which influences people to choose parteners that look like the supermodels. That's what's unhealthy.... I'm not saying that's absolute by any means, but it's the only trend I can really see consistently at work here.

The class destinction only works if we know how many of those poorer children survive. It's probably safe to say that just about every planned child lives to reproduce, but you probably can't say the same for poorer children who go hungry or don't have a place to live, or don't get the medicine they need. But maybe there enough being made that it doesn't make a significant difference. Who knows? I wouldn't say that only poverty and stupidity leads to theft though - the very rich steal much more than petty criminals a lot of the time, and that doesn't go to keeping anyone "afloat". Plus, people who steal generally do it to buy alcohol, in my experience, which is actually deterimental to health.

And when you consider that the very rich generally don't have sex with the very poor, you might even break society up into its three classes before you start looking at where evolution is taking us. We have, in America, several destinct populations living right necxt to each other that do their best to have nothing to do with one another. But I think that overall in all of these circumstances, environment plays a bigger role - we are all predisposed to die if we don't eat, don't get proper medical care, etc.


Genetic opposites, no. But there are genes that don't express themselves until certain conditions arise. For example, Himilayan bunnies turn white in the snow, and black in the spring. Their genes react to a cold sensor (if you hold an ice pack on them, they will also change - when the new fur grows.) The frogs that change gender do so only if not enough of one gender is around - to balance out the gender distribution of the population. In a similar way, I was wondering if celibacy or homosexuality could be triggered in certain people by overpopulation.

I don't entirely subscribe to the theory of memes, although it is interesting. It eliminates the ability to chose and have free will (I am borrowing a religious term here) which I do believe humans have. It almost implies predetermination in every action and leaves no responsibility to self-improvement and individual thought.

As far as I can tell, people don't chose partners that look like supermodels. They're neat to look at on T.V., and I know men who think so! But that doesn't mean they are looking for the exact same qualities in a sexual mate. As far as I gather from my psych./sociology majoring roomate, they look for a certain amount of symmetry, a waist - to - hip - ratio, and exoticism (ex: blondes.)

About class distinction: In a wealthy and benevolent society, the poor are supported by that society (ex: America.) That way, the children live. But if such society were eliminated, I don't know if many of these children could support themselves. So yes, they are surviving and reproducing, but probably would not be were it not for the wide availability of well paying low skill jobs in America (by well paying, I mean able to pay for food and rent - historically this would have made a man wealthy.) And by social programs (help - willing or unwilling - given by other members of the society.)
0 Replies
 
Individual
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 02:09 pm
I'll try to find out where I heard about genetic opposites but it goes something like this: through specific olfactory senses, we are able to pick out a mate that is as close to the opposite set of genes that we can find. That always happens unless certain conscious activities interfere.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
Paradigm shifts - Question by Cyracuz
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 05/15/2024 at 06:00:14