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Overvalued Values

 
 
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2012 03:24 am
There appears to be a distinct tendency to overvalue ethical-political values. Some idea like Freedom is fixed on and then stretched, by assuming other values that are kept hidden.
Values can relate to relations between individuals and between and with social groups.
Fighters in Syria today, know what they are fighting for. It is to overthrow what they perceive as a Tyranny. But when they achieve Freedom? It sits there solid and impassive, waiting for a motor to drive it.
That motor is other related values that provide it with meaning, and a defined end-value.
So very often what is imposed is nothing better than more values of tyranny. One prejudice in favour of another.
Unfortunately values are indeed solid and impassive, and they only reverberate where included in a poetical slogan such as Freedom Liberty and Equality. Or should that simply be Freedom and Equality?
The lack of subtlety in this is that these values are consonant with each other, and do not provide the essential motor. They merely equate with opposition to tyranny.
One such motor is Responsibility, which when combined with Freedom is intrinsically opposed to tyranny, and can only mean responsibility of people for each other, and social groups likewise.
At the other end of the spectrum, responsibility signifies to be subject to the law and authority - which is perfectly necessary in an imperfect society, but not in the absence of personal responsibility.
There are a multitude of values not all of which are distinct from each other.
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Fido
 
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Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2012 06:50 am
@RW Standing,
I think it is great that you are thinking about such things, but you really do not have the vocabulary down... If I can, I will reply a little later is a more detailed fasion.
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2012 06:52 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
I think it is great that you are thinking about such things, but you really do not have the vocabulary down... If I can, I will reply a little later is a more detailed fasion.


thanks for the morning laugh
Fido
 
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Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2012 09:08 am
@djjd62,
My first posts and last posts have so much in common... You are welcome... Laugh your little head off!!!
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Fido
 
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Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2012 11:28 am
@RW Standing,
RW Standing wrote:

There appears to be a distinct tendency to overvalue ethical-political values. Some idea like Freedom is fixed on and then stretched, by assuming other values that are kept hidden.
Values can relate to relations between individuals and between and with social groups.
Fighters in Syria today, know what they are fighting for. It is to overthrow what they perceive as a Tyranny. But when they achieve Freedom? It sits there solid and impassive, waiting for a motor to drive it.
That motor is other related values that provide it with meaning, and a defined end-value.
So very often what is imposed is nothing better than more values of tyranny. One prejudice in favour of another.
Unfortunately values are indeed solid and impassive, and they only reverberate where included in a poetical slogan such as Freedom Liberty and Equality. Or should that simply be Freedom and Equality?
The lack of subtlety in this is that these values are consonant with each other, and do not provide the essential motor. They merely equate with opposition to tyranny.
One such motor is Responsibility, which when combined with Freedom is intrinsically opposed to tyranny, and can only mean responsibility of people for each other, and social groups likewise.
At the other end of the spectrum, responsibility signifies to be subject to the law and authority - which is perfectly necessary in an imperfect society, but not in the absence of personal responsibility.
There are a multitude of values not all of which are distinct from each other.

First; as a point of agreement with others, I would say that people fighting often have no sense of what they are fighting for, and have every sense of what they are fighting against... And this is not to make an argument, but to offer a suggestion...

I see that you use the metaphore of a motor as opposed to a motive, and this is perhaps natural in a machine age, since so many seem to identify themselves as machines, and think of themselves as machines; but even when they are as cogs in a wheel, or links in a chain of command people are not these things, and their motivations other than in the most general sense cannot be so directed... Is it not obvious that most people move around like smoke in an example of brownian movement??? There may be ideas that give us direction when we feel lost, but most of the time we simply bounce around from movement to movement, from job to job, or school to job to play to retirement to death... People do act upon their morals... A person's morals makes them...It is the element of morals as character which most shows their ultimate meaning... People act as they are, and their morals are who they are...

So; let me work on your vocabulary... Morals are meanings, and meanings are values.... If you were to describe concepts, ideas, and forms as certain values, as we would say of number, that: one is one, then you can understand the difference between moral form and physical forms... All forms represent a certain sense of reality, and all forms represent a certain judgment, or knowledge, as knowledge and judgment are the same... All physical forms represent something that is finite, and so, can be considered as an object... All moral forms, what may be called transendent concepts represent something infinite that cannot be considered as an object at all... Said simply, physical objects have being and meaning, and it is the being of the finite physical object that is represented by the physical form, though only as analogy... Moral forms have meaning without being... Their meaning as infinite spiritual manifestations have their being entirely as meaning, represented as an infinite, and so only quasi and moral form, called by some, a transendent concept... I do not think the word transendent concept captures at all the meaning of a moral form, though they are identical... To say -Moral Form really captures the sense of our knowledge and the limitations of our knowledge as to infinite spritual reality, because it is out of ourselves and our own character, our sense of the moral good of the virtues that we judge all those situations demanding moral judgment and action...

All physical forms can be expressed mathematically...There is no mathematics of the soul... And it is not over physical forms that we fight... Every war, and every dispute, and every discourse is driven by moral forms... If you said that without moral forms people would not fight, then without moral forms we would not live, at least not as we conceive life, as a moral form, with the possibility of good, or happiness at some point...

Our moral forms are involved with all judgments, even to a degree, -of our scientific judgments and their value...Every thing we do involves a moral choice, even our choice to continue breathing... And it is out of our moral meanings, our values, that we build social forms like government, like law, and like relgions... Our sense of order and balance makes Governments... Our senses of right and justice makes Law...Our sense of God's mercy and justice, and of human virtue makes religions...People make social forms to stagnate and stratify their relationships... That is an effect rather than the cause...Rather, when some one has a good relationship, or a relationship they consider to be good, they formalize it with rules, and they do so to preserve a certain state of affairs... But; affairs cannot be static because no good relationship can be static... If you see that people in love get married, it is because they are wishing to preserve the relationship, which is between themselves, their families, and all of society... So they make certain promises, and they make oaths and make contracts, but if the relationship is not healthy, capable of change and growth, then no amount of formality will save it...The same is true of government...

We make government out of our moral forms so that the social forms is built upon ones ethical understanding of good, which Aristotle said are formed for good- out of the understanding that good is the object of all human activity... Here is the problem with most social forms, and clearly of government: The relationships they were meant to fix in place, and to protect may never have been good relationships to begin with so that their stagnation only dooms them to a lingering death...The rigidity of forms meant to protect even good relationship can prevent their growth and adaptation to changing circumstances... Every society that has perished off the face of the earth died because of failed social forms that very often reflected the immorality of the people.... People who set up civilizations do not act out of altruism... They are already advanced in their justification of injustice to each other and to the world... People conquer out of injustice and immorality, and they are defeated by it as well... All progress for humanity involves a change of forms, and forms always fall with certainty, but the people who understands their situation, and can change its forms through revolution have a future as well as a past...

In conclusion, it is easy to see social forms like government as forms of relationship, but in fact, all forms are forms of relationship, even scientific forms and obscure religious beliefs... We relate to each other though our sense of what is true, and that does not mean we agree, because we never do agree even when we think we do, and even truth is a moral forms and subject of disagreement... It is normal and not wrong and is completely natural that people should build forms, and so long as they understand that forms must change or be changed... Change is the fundamental rule of life, and forms resist change, as forms, like scientific laws as forms represent something conserved, such as the conservation of motion, or of mass... Conservatism is a part of almost every character, so it is little wonder we would want to build social forms to reflect our conservatism... But all relationships are anything but conservative... Relationships are dynamic, and as much as possible people should build their forms to reflect that fact rather than as a monument to their fears of the future...

People built their dungeons to resemble their caves and built their cabins to resemble their tents, but if they had built any of these forms of shelter to last an eternity it would have taken an eternity to build- and not lasted a day... The form should reflect the need of the relationship, and nothing more, for it is certain needs will change, and the social forms reflecting the needs of yesterday will not serve till tomorrow... The price of supporting warn out social forms is like that of supporting warn out forms of dwelling or clothing... If you spend all your time patching and not wearing it is time for new clothes...Same with government...

Let me add that the meaning of moral form is often used, and abused; but those who define and redefine our indefinite moral forms to justify themselves and their goals are actually defining themselves out of society... If you define immorality as moral you are not defining yourself or immorality into society but judging yourself outside of society and superior to society... Society, all people- hold to moral virtues out of necessity and these ideas follow us out of our distant past to help us to judge life and the social forms we get through life with...
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