"Nice" bullies

Hi everybody and thanks so much for your replies. I really do appreciate it.

Mo can be a little thin skinned -- but it's mostly in that he's very, very literal. He doesn't "get" sarcasm and that sometimes leads to misunderstandings.

He does know that when he brings these kinds of problems to me that there will be a confrontation between me and whoever is causing the problem so he's pretty careful with this kind of complaint. He knows I'll force the issue and get to the truth. He's also brutally honest.

He rarely cries wolf on anything because he knows he'll get backed into a corner -- that I'll takes steps to resolve it and that if he's not telling the truth that will come out to. When this came up yesterday I said that I was writing to the teacher requesting a meeting between the three of us so that we could get to the bottom of it, all he felt was relief. He didn't back down from his position in the least. He didn't back down when we met with the teacher either.

I won't even pretend to understand this school's policy of shuffling every kid in every class to a new seat every six weeks or so. I've never really received a decent answer to the question when I've asked about it. I assume it has some benefit but I can't for the life of me figure out what it is.

But this policy seems to have something to do with why Mo wasn't assigned a new seat when he first asked for one. There was also the "if I moved him I'd have to move everyone who asked for a new seat" and the "everyone needs to learn to get along with everyone else" and the "kids start asking a lot of difficult questions when I move a kid" replies.

I agree that kids need to learn to live side by side with people they don't particularly like. Sometimes you just have to tolerate someone. It's the whole "better get used to it" method of educating a future work force. But calling your co-worker a "clueless idiot" and other such names would surely land you in the HR office for harassment. In the "real world" you also have the option to flipping quit if your environment is hostile.

Anyway.....

The teacher is supposed to meet with both kids today to try to broker an understanding. If that doesn't help the next step is to get all the parents together. If that doesn't help the next step is to get the administration involved.

Parents are or should be the first and best advocate for their children, so in this case, I would insist on a new seating assignment. It doesn't matter if the teacher thinks Paul is a nice boy; the fact is, your child is being bothered by him. I don't think there's any need for anyone to talk to Paul about this - it could be he and Mo just rub each other the wrong way. But I'd definitely not have accepted what she said. I would have said, No, you move him! and gone higher if she refused. Mo has issues that don't need to be aggravated even if the teacher doesn't think that's happening. She can't see everything that's going on. It's enough that he's anxious.

What's the big deal to change seats, anyway? If I were the teacher, I'd just ask him who he'd like to sit with and move him there.

is she freaking whack? is she trying to make things more difficult for Mo?

I’m sorry – wish there was something I could do. Not sure where the teacher’s mind is – she works with kids every day and should realize that they are kids. Even nice kids are mean sometimes. The kids may not realize that they are being so hurtful. Kids are brutally honest often times and what comes out of their mouth is often just what is on their mind. The teacher should speak with the class about appropriate language and what sorts of things could be hurtful. And like you sozobe is saying if it isn’t stopped it will continue because they kids are not learning it is wrong.

The call to parents thing is good in particular if you know the parents. I’ve had conversations with parents before – but we go to such a small school we know the other parents. Most parents would want to know and use this to teach their children to be kind….

If not - The wire thing though would be really cool as David suggested – I bet Mo would love that covert operation.

WELL SAID, Mame!
U r a good lawyer!





David

I know.

But I'll give the school credit -- they are usually VERY good at smoothing things over and addressing issues once they've had them pointed out.

I just ushered Mo out the door for school today and his stress level has plummeted. I guess talking to the teacher was a relief. I reminded him that he would be meeting with the teacher and Paul today and urged him to speak up for himself, be willing to listen to what Paul has to say, and work to get things resolved.

Mo said that he'd given it a lot of thought (which is probably why he was wandering around the house at 4 AM) and that he was going to open with "Paul, I know you have a good heart and that you probably don't mean to hurt my feelings but you are."

I thought that was good -- to the point but diplomatic.

Mo seems to be looking forward to getting it resolved.

That Mo's a good kid.

It sounds like the philosophy of swimming education
that advocates hurling a non-swimmer into deep water
on the theory that he will either sink or swim.





David

wow - I'm impressed with his approach - if Paul is a nice kid - just being a normal bratty 3rd grader as they all are at some point - he respond well to that. Very impressive and mature way to handle. And I'm sure he feels empowered too by working this out on his own with some guidance

My first reaction to your initial post is, do you have any of this in writing? I think you need to snap this teacher out of her riff on the bullies being "such a nice boy/girl". And considering how some teachers and school administrations work, it may take a letter from a lawyer to do the snapping.

On a tangent: Over in A2K's political threads, whenever I voice my qualified support of home schooling, other correspondents tend to educate me how valuable all that social interaction in school is, and how naive I am for wanting to take that away from children. And yet, judging by the parenting threads, bullying is a common problem in schools, it causes serious harm to children, and grownups seem fairly helpless about it. How does that fit together?

You're preaching to the choir!

I don't know any kids that were homeschooled for religious reasons but I know several kids that were homeschooled because the parents lost faith in the school's ability to truly educate their child and a handful who pulled their kids out of school because of the hyper-competitive, exclusionary environment of school.

All of the ones I know do very well socially. They aren't quite as inhibited, which some may look at as a bad thing, though.

I did have a consultation with a very good attorney that specializes in education issues a while back. I have someone I can call quickly, if I need to. I really hope it can be resolved without having to go that far.

Mo only has 5 months left at that school before being done with it forever. I'd really like to see him finish up there but I'm willing to pull him out. I'm trying to get him into an alternative school for next year.

All I can say on that issue is that social interaction as children prepares you for the nightmares you experience as an adult, both at work and home (see anything Linkat has written on her neighbours and co-workers, for example). Not that I have anything against homeschooling because I don't. In some families or situations, it's perfect. And homeschooled kids often get social interaction in the neighbourhood, parks, sports, etc.

Cheesits, I really like Mo.

My mother, born in 1901, an amazing thing for me to re-realize as time goes by, fairly often told me about her brother grabbing and throwing her into Lake Champlain, I guess from a pier, or maybe a boat, I think at age sixteen.

She never did learn to swim. That said, she got me into swimming lessons (not that they actually took at that time, as, cough, I shook my feet instead of kicking) when I was around ten. But at least she worked it so that I could at least float should I ever be hurled into a lake. I finally learned to really swim when I was around 37.

Sorry for digression - I was just pleased to agree for a change with David.

I guess that means I could have used more social interaction as a child - must be why I am so pecular now.

I'm not against homeschooling either - might have been when first reading about it. I do pause about entirely isolating children in quite closed in groups, whether religious or some other type of group, re interactions. I was isolated somewhat that way and grew into my adulthood the long and hard way. Still, I'm not against it as a generality.

I had a long ago friend, boyfriend of a friend, who was a test pilot and super type aeronautical engineer. His mother homeschooled him, and that would have been, gah, in the thirties.

Actually, if done well, and lots of schools have quite systematic ways of doing it, it can work really well, especially with assertive follow-up.

yeah, the key is on "if done well"

I haven't been hearing very good things about situations like this lately. Kids ending up getting more centred out. The particular situation I'm aware of IRL has not turned out well.

I don't have a lot of faith in schools' abilities to deal with social bullying - and I don't think it is the place of the school to manage it.

Who do you think should manage it?