I just don’t understand drinking and driving

@BillRM,

Yep, and you have to wonder what is behind this massive shift in priorities. California once had a world renowned upper level education system, but they gutted it to pay for more prisons, how did that happen? My answer is that sadistic tendencies and fear are behind the shift. I am pissing in the wind calling for the American "Justice" system to reclaim Justice, but I always was a sucker for lost causes. I dont think that this get solved until we face up to our sadism, but that is a third rail and has been for a long time. Thomas Moore (Care of the Soul) once wrote a book looking into this matter, and boy his career sure got derailed for this act of heresy, along with others .

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@hawkeye10,

Take note Bill that public support of Universities nationwide is now about half of what it was 20 years ago in terms percentage of cost paid by the pubic.....we have elected to fund the system by loading up the young with debt so that they are even more fucked over than they were already going to be by our refusal to leave them a sound country. But when it comes to running the 'justice" system and for policing there is always money for that.

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@BillRM,

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the housing/jailing of such evil people who we had here for added years for daring to drive a block to summon aid...

Continuing to drive drunk, even after hitting someone with your car, and fatally injuring them, isn't merely "daring", it's reckless. A body hitting your windshield couldn't be a clearer message that it's time to stop the car and turn off the ignition...immediately.

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One wonder how many more of our citizens are going to died because...

People continue to drive drunk or impaired by drugs?

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@hawkeye10,

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We account for 25 percent of all prisoners but only 5 percent of the global population. Our penchant for punishment has come at a cost. We spend almost $70 billion annually to place adults in prison and jails, to confine youth in detention centers, and to supervise 7.3 million individuals on probation and parole
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Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger of California noted in his 2010 State of the State address: "Spending 45 percent more on prisons than universities is no way to proceed into the future. ... What does it say about any state that focuses more on prison uniforms than on caps and gowns?

http://prospect.org/article/education-vs-incarceration

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@hawkeye10,

That priorities in the spending of public monies may need re-thinking is quite true.

The issue is also quite irrelevant to this thread which is about a very specific drunk driving manslaughter case.

People's lives, as well as a great deal of money, would be saved if drivers stopped getting behind the wheel while chemically impaired. A car is a lethal weapon and it must be operated responsibly.

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@hawkeye10,

Take note there is now a drive to outsource the prison industry and once private companies and their lobblyists are in the mixed of a 100 billions plus public gold mine you will be likely seeing hard times for having three or more library books overdue!!!!!!! Evil or Very Mad

Of course with the fireflies of the world getting their wish for ever larger percent of the total population behind bars for every increasing time periods we will have fewer and fewer people who can read less alone get in trouble for overdue books.

Strange we are no safer then other western countries with far less harsh punishments is it not?

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@BillRM,

I have to disagree with you, as I dont think that the for profit prison lobby is the problem, they are simply supplying a need which has been created by our sadism and our fear. The Prison Workers Unions are very powerful politically as their numbers are large and they are well paid thus they have a lot of money to kick into corrupting the political process, but they only came into existence due to out sadism and fear.

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@firefly,

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People's lives, as well as a great deal of money, would be saved if drivers stopped getting behind the wheel while chemically impaired. A car is a lethal weapon and it must be operated responsibly.

So is the prosecutors discretion, the abuse of which is a much better place to start if we wish to fix America.

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@hawkeye10,

so its ok with you for people to be driving around all fucked up and a danger to everyone on the road? You have some strange priorities there Bute.

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@farmerman,

It is not OK, but order of priority maters.

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@farmerman,

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so its ok with you for people to be driving around all fucked up and a danger to everyone on the road? You have some strange priorities there Bute

So we should throw out all common sense in punishing people for this misdeed and oh take note of the ever decreasing idea of what level of BAC is all **** up

The average level for a accident cause by or an arrest due to a police officer being able to detect bad driving because of is a BAC of 1.7.

Many states are now putting in two level of DUI punishment one for being in fact all **** up at 1.5 or greater and the other for the current federal government force on the states standard of .08.

Can not hardly wait under the legal standard is reduce to .05 or lower.

Of course this is all a small part of the drive to get more and more of the citizens involved with the so call criminal justice system,

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@BillRM,

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Of course this is all a small part of the drive to get more and more of the citizens involved with the so call criminal justice system,

Te drive is to appreciate more power for the state....

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@BillRM,

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So we should throw out all common sense in punishing people for this misdeed

The "misdeed" was causing, or contributing to, the death of another human being.

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Of course this is all a small part of the drive to get more and more of the citizens involved with the so call criminal justice system,

Did the state force Thom Swift to ingest alcohol that night and then drive his car?

Do you know how much above .08 Swift's BAC level might have been?

Did the state drive the car that hit and killed Barry Lancaster?

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@firefly,

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The "misdeed" was causing, or contributing to, the death of another human being

There is no indication that his BAC had anything to do with the death of the cyclist and sadly there is no need to have such a showing before we hit him with DUI manslaughter just a BAC of .08 and that is the problem here. Beside the fleeing charge for going a block and phoning for help.

If could be shown beyond question that the best driver in the world at his best could not had avoided this accident and it would not matter if the BAC is at least a .08 of this gentleman.

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@firefly,

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Did the state drive the car that hit and killed Barry Lancaster?

Howabout a few more questions did the BAC level of the driver had anything at all to do with the accident or not?

Did the accident happen instead because of the actions of the cyclist such as perhaps cycling without lights or cycling under the influence himself?

As I had said that some cyclists behaviors is of a nature that they are an accident waiting to happen even if there is no drivers within a thousand miles of them with a BAC greater then 0.0.

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@BillRM,

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There is no indication that his BAC had anything to do with the death of the cyclist...

Are driving skills enhanced when the BAC level is above .08 or are reaction time, depth perception, night vision, coordination, etc. all adversely affected? And you don't know how high Swift's BAC level was--it might have been considerably above .08.

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If could be shown beyond question that the best driver in the world at his best could not had avoided this accident

If, if, if.....And how about if it could be shown that a sober driver could have avoided this accident?

Meanwhile, Swift was driving the car that hit and killed Lancaster, and he didn't avoid hitting him, even through both the bike and the car were traveling in the same direction, and the bike had to be in front of the car for Lancaster to have been thrown up against the windshield. Even a bike which lacks rear reflectors, which most bikes have, and this bike likely did, is not invisible on a normally illuminated residential street particularly in the range of a car's headlights. An alert and sober driver should be able to react in time to avoid hitting it. And, if you can see that the bike is being driven erratically, and we have no reason to believe that was the case, you just keep a good distance from it.

So, the few details we have, from the press release, do not describe a situation where a collision might have been inevitable under any circumstances.

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Beside the fleeing charge for going a block and phoning for help.

Did he stop his car at the scene? Did he even look at the victim to see his condition?
Or did he just keep driving--which is leaving the scene?
How long after the accident did he make that phone call to the police? Do you know whether he even called the police?

What problem do you have accepting that the charges against him might be justified? Do you have actual evidence to refute any of the charges against him?

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@firefly,

As a footnote I have no great problem in the courts allowing a presumption of guilt and responsibility for an accident when a driver had a BAC >= .08 (footnote I would be happier with a BAC of .1) however that presumption should be open to challenge.

I see no benefits at all with jailing someone for DUI manslaughter if the driver BAC can be shown not to have been a significant factor in the death or deaths.

As far as even traces amount of alcohol having some effect on driving skills no one question that however so does driving tired or driving emotionally upset or eating as you are driving.

The only time in my life that I found that I could not control a car and could not remain in my lane of traffic was due to lack of sleep not because of a BAC greater then 0.0.

Needing to pull over on the side of the highway and sleep for a few hours as a matter of fact.

Alcohol affects is not special in relationships to all the others factors that impact driving skills.

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@BillRM,

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I see no benefits at all with jailing someone for DUI manslaughter if the driver BAC can be shown not to have been a significant factor in the death or deaths.

That's because you're too dense to realize that a BAC of .08 or more adversely affects driving skills--it is a significant factor in affecting driving ability, therefore it can be considered contributory to an accident.

The law doesn't say that BAC has to be a significant factor in a vehicular homicide, but simply that it is a factor. Simple DUI is a crime in and of itself. DUI manslaughter is a vehicular homicide that occurs when the driver is DUI--the homicide occurs when the driver is already operating a motor vehicle illegally, and in a legally impaired state.
And a vehicular homicide/manslaughter charge alleges negligence on the part of the driver that caused, or contributed, to a death. And, if the driver was also DUI, the fact that the motor vehicle was being operated illegally increases the seriousness of the offense.

And, in the case we are discussing, you have no idea how high the driver's BAC level was.

And you have no evidence to indicate that the charges in this case are not fully justified.

You are doing nothing except repeating the same crap you've posted before. You just say the same things over and over like a broken record.

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@firefly,

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That's because you're too dense to realize that a BAC of .08 or more adversely affects driving skills--it is a significant factor in affecting driving ability, therefore it can be considered contributory to an accident.

So is driving after having a fight with your mate and a hundred of other factors and somewhere on this thread is a link to studies placing the risk of a 30 something driver driving with a BAC of .08 having the same risk profile as a 18 year old driver with a BAC of 0.0.

If you are not willing to just insist that a tired driver or a sick driver or an old driver is guilty of manslaughter without question when there is an accident resulting in death I see no logic in doing so for a BAC of .08.

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@firefly,

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And, in the case we are discussing, you have no idea how high the driver's BAC level was.

And you have no evidence to indicate that the charges in this case are not fully justified

And neither do you however that does not change the fact that you wish to hang anyone with a BAC of .08 or higher involved in an accident with a death no matter what other factors may had happen to had been involved in causing the accident.

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I just don’t understand drinking and driving

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