43
   

I just don’t understand drinking and driving

 
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 11:44 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I accept that the world is not a perfect place.

I accept that we should address injustice as and when we have the opportunity.

I also think that whining on the Internet about the current state of affairs is pretty damn useless.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 11:49 pm
@hawkeye10,


hawkeye10 wrote:
It does not clear much up...
it strongly suggests that his homeless situation was voluntary which comes as no surprise.
So what ??




hawkeye10 wrote:
The wife is either not in it or not much which considering the OBIT was predictable.
What is your point???





hawkeye10 wrote:
The shocker is that the twins are not much a part of the video either,
though both have lit a candle on his tribute wall (along with Butterflynet)
Y is that a "shocker"??
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 12:42 am
@OmSigDAVID,
The point is the same as for the psychological autopsy , in this case to try to determine if Barry was pursuing a death wish through habitual reckless behavior. . The state does not care what if any part Barry played in his death, but I do.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 12:44 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
I also think that whining on the Internet about the current state of affairs is pretty damn useless.


So you must have a better venue in mind for this sort of conversation. Where is it?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 12:46 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

hawkeye10 wrote:

I prefer to encourage people to try to show me where I am wrong.

Almost everywhere.

facts not in evidence.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 02:22 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Thom has no opportunity to argue that his diminished capacity had nothing to do with Barry's death.

A defense lawyer could try to argue that, but I doubt that one in his right mind would risk doing that at trial. If Lancaster died due to the trauma of being hit by Swift's car, you cannot eliminate the car and the driver from the death. You cannot argue convincingly that diminished capacity does not affect a person's ability to operate a motor vehicle or to avoid accidents--by definition, diminished capacity is affecting those abilities. That's why we have drunk driving laws.

A lot may depend on whether the accident was witnessed, and what those witnesses might have seen.

Swift apparently didn't see Lancaster until he landed on his windshield, so he can't give a full accounting of events prior to impact--he thought he might have hit a pedestrian meaning he never saw a person on a bike.

Barring witnesses, an accident reconstruction expert might be able to determine how the collision took place.

Were there even skid marks to indicate that Swift tried to brake, or did he just plow into Lancaster? Even if there were no lights on Lancaster's bike, which we have no way of knowing, why didn't Swift see him at all before the man landed on his car? Did he have his car headlights on? Was the street absolutely, totally pitch black, with no street lights of any kind? Was Swift traveling fast, too fast if the conditions were foggy? Even if there was fog that night, why couldn't he swerve to avoid Lancaster, or hit the brakes, once the bike was within the range of his headlights ?

If Swift didn't see Lancaster until the man landed against his windshield, his attorney will have a hard time claiming that the accident itself was unavoidable, under any circumstances. This isn't like a child who, while chasing a ball, runs out from between parked cars directly in front of a moving car--although even in that situation, it can be argued that the driver should have seen the child running on the sidewalk toward the street, or should have seen the ball bouncing into the street and anticipated someone might follow it.
In this case, the bike was on the road, traveling in the same direction as the car, probably in front of the car. So, why didn't the driver see it before he hit it? Suppose it had been a pedestrian walking in the road in the same direction as the car? Isn't a driver responsible for seeing him and going around him, or blowing a horn to alert him?

Every single accident I've ever had while driving, beside being hit in the rear at a red light, happened because I was either distracted or not paying enough attention. I've been driving since I was 16 and I haven't had many accidents at all, but the few I've had could probably all have been avoided by me, including the ones that were due to dumb mistakes of other drivers, if my mind hadn't been momentarily elsewhere for a few seconds.

A great deal of driving involves defensive driving and accident avoidance, and watching out for pedestrians, bikers, pets running loose, children running into the street, and lousy drivers or drivers who might be drunk. And a drunk driver can't react as fast as a sober driver to avoid a sudden, unexpected situation. So, a defense attorney would have a hard time arguing that Swift's impaired state did not affect both Swift's ability to perceive Lancaster on that bike as well as his ability to perform the driving maneuvers that might have avoided a collision.
Which is why I don't think his defense attorney will take that tack unless there are witnesses who can say the collision was absolutely unavoidable by Swift for some reason, like extremely dense fog and no available streetlights and no lights on Lancaster's bike. But, if the fog was that dense, Swift should have been crawling along at a snail's pace, and therefore able to stop on a dime if he suddenly saw something in front of his car.

DUI manslaughter in Florida simply requires that Swift contributed to Lancaster's death. And he certainly did that by hitting him with the car. To argue that Swift's impaired state was not a factor in that occurrence, Hawkeye, really does not make sense because there is no way of eliminating his impaired state from the situation. And, we don't know just how impaired he was, his BAC might have been considerably above .08 which would make it even more of a factor. But, if the defense can find some way of arguing it, I'm sure they will.

It's more likely the defense will challenge the BAC testing procedure, or the arrest procedures and when Swift was given his Miranda rights to try to get the BAC testing and Swift's "confession" to the police, about driving and hitting someone, thrown out. If the accident was not witnessed, the state has to have other evidence that Swift was behind the wheel when the car hit Lancaster because Swift did not remain at the scene. If he told police he was driving, as part of making an accident report, before he was given Miranda warnings, and he did not repeat that statement after being given the warnings, his statements cannot be used against him as the sole evidence he was driving. The state will have to find another way of establishing he was behind the wheel, and that might be easy or not easy. And that sort of thing can be a bargaining chip for the defense in a plea deal.

But Hawkeye, all the legal wrangling between the prosecution and the defense, is also apart from the reality of the situation. Swift was driving drunk and he killed someone--and he knows that. So, whatever tactics his lawyers might use to get him a better plea deal, or even the tactics they might use to convince a jury at trial, are not necessarily reflective of the "truth" of the matter. I read about a case yesterday where a judge dismissed DUI charges against someone because the defense presented evidence that suggested the DUI arrest might have been made to meet a quota, which would be illegal on the part of the police. Did the legal dismissal of charges mean the person hadn't actually been driving drunk? No, they had been driving drunk, their lawyer just found a clever way to convince a judge to dismiss the charge. So legal guilt or innocence doesn't always comport with the "truth".

And, since we're not in a courtroom, and we're not bound by the legal rules and procedures that must be followed there, I think our discussion should be more real and less quasi-legal because we're not actually trying a criminal case here. Swift knows he was drunk and that he killed someone, and, according to jcboy, he is very depressed about that fact. So, beside whatever prison sentence he might or might not receive, that's a personal burden of guilt he will have to live with for the rest of his life. And, unlike you, I doubt he's trying to alleviate that guilt by thinking of Lancaster as a worthless bum whose death didn't matter, and, unlike you, he probably isn't trying to remove alcohol as a factor in that death. Looking at things in legal terms is quite different than looking at them in human terms. Why not stop playing lawyer and look at the situation in simply human terms. One man is dead and another's life is in turmoil, all because of drunk driving. In human terms it's simple, and it has nothing to do with a power mad goverment hammering on citizens. We need people to stop driving drunk.



FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 02:25 am
@hawkeye10,
Do you know I actually not only read what you did, from that link but I spent the 20 minutes viewing all of the photos.

It's possible he was very much into himself, married because of the son, she looked happy, he didn't and he was irresponsible, into his bands, music, sports, kids, but not the wife.. And it's possible that after the twins were born, she the wife, had, had enough and kicked him out... A man without his children... possible no job either at that time, can be pushed to the edge and feel nothing...

But someone loved him, that's a lot of memories to watch for 20 minutes..

I used to like solving cases, on Serial Killers.. You seem to like solving them before they end, see if you were right...

Don't forget Hawkeye to not only look at things black and white but also the gray.

Thanks for sharing the link...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 02:52 am
@FOUND SOUL,
The obit and the tribute both paint Barry as a type....the fun loving guy who is allergic to work. We I think all know guys like that, and I know what happens to them in the late 30's onwards if they dont attract a female with earnings who is willing to put up with them. There is a slim chance that I am wrong, but I think that his life was effectively over years ago, as the options ran out. What we dont know yet is if his give a **** about his life was broken, and if as a result he moved into reckless behavior. We need to hear from someone who knew the Barry who was homeless in St Pete, as the family that loved him in Kankakee would have had little contact with him, both out of exhaustion as well as his preference.

FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 02:57 am
@hawkeye10,
I know you are cross referencing everything to want to gleen the truth before the truth is told:)

I think I painted a simular picture but the point being, think gray too.. When you posted that link, you gave people something to view that told another story, one of someone who just died, who probably was reckless in his own downfalls and as a result lost his family and became homeless maybe not exactly by choice.. But he was homeless. And, so, the gray is.... "Sad really but anyways"....

Preaching haha. No not really just pointing something out that I observed.

What I may, see... Is that he "may" also have been drinking we don't know that at this stage, as 2.15am you would hopefully have found somewhere to sleep but again, then there is, "there was no-where" I kept riding...

But the bottom line is he was a human being and deserves a comment if you are going to post a link of his death.

But, that's just me.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 03:16 am
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
What I may, see... Is that he "may" also have been drinking we don't know that at this stage, as 2.15am you would hopefully have found somewhere to sleep but again, then there is, "there was no-where" I kept riding...
The city has a new policy that if the homeless are caught sleeping at night they have the choice of going to the shelter or to jail....the police will roust them.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 03:22 am
@hawkeye10,
Soooo... That means that they never "don't have a place to sleep?" ... What do you mean "caught sleeping at night" .

"I'm blonde you know" not really but yeah ...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 03:23 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Swift knows he was drunk and that he killed someone, and, according to jcboy, he is very depressed about that fact.


Engineers of trains who are involved with suicide by train, and cops who are involved in suicide by cop also often get depressed after, but not out of feelings of guilt. Being involved in the death of another is traumatic and depressing as a matter of course. You have taken here-say on Thom's current emotional state and parleyed that into a conclusion that the evidence never gave you the right to make.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 03:31 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
The point is the same as for the psychological autopsy , in this case to try to determine if Barry was pursuing a death wish through habitual reckless behavior. . The state does not care what if any part Barry played in his death, but I do.
To put it mildly, it is a very ambitious project
to retroactively execute a post mortem psychoanalysis upon him,
to figure out if he had a general death wish, and a specific death wish that nite.

I am skeptical that the court 'd let it in.

Do u have any statutory support
or judicial precedent in favor of such inquiry??

Will there be funding of mental health care professionals
as medical experts for the defense ?





David
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 03:39 am
@FOUND SOUL,
FOUND SOUL wrote:

Soooo... That means that they never "don't have a place to sleep?" ... What do you mean "caught sleeping at night" .

"I'm blonde you know" not really but yeah ...


That means that in their effort to deal with their long running out of control homeless situation the city demands that the homeless either go to an underfunded and depressing homeless shelter which sits next to the jail, or else they hide so good that they are not found by the cops. If they go to the shelter they will be pressured to get out of the lifestyle trough a government program, something that the hard core homeless have no interest in doing, or else get out of town to someplace that is more willing to tolerate their kind. St Pete has long been a mecca for the homeless of the Eastern half of America during the winter due to their warm weather.....the leaders of St Pete dont want to do that anymore.

You might think that the city would give Thom a pass because Barry is the kind the the city does not want, but the city leaders have political problems as the do-gooder organizations which have been facilitating making St Pete a Mecca for the homeless by feeding and supporting them are up in Arms over the cities crack-down on the homeless. If the city has their way the do-gooders are going to be out of business, and they dont want that. The city has no choice but to get some good licks into Thom, to show that they care about the well being of the homeless, and thus keeping the do gooders off of their ass as much as possible.

My analysis is that Thom is fucked. Which will equal 13 years.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 03:49 am
@hawkeye10,
Your fanciful speculations about whether Lancaster led a reckless life, or drove a bike in a deliberately reckless way, are interesting fiction, but also totally irrelevant to the legal case against Thom Swift.

Swift operated a motor vehicle while under the influence of alcohol, which is not only illegal, it is a reckless act by definition. The person we know was reckless was Swift--by driving drunk he was endangering himself as well as everyone else. And, while driving his car drunk, he ran into Lancaster and killed him. He failed to even see a man on a bike--it was not that the biker was moving recklessly, Swift didn't even see the biker. A man on a bike is not a small object in the path of a car. Cars have headlights, the man on the bike should have been visible to Swift before impact. Except Swift was recklessly operating his car while under the influence of alcohol and was possibly so blind drunk, he couldn't see the man on the bike...And he never even stopped his car to look at the man he just hit.

Why are you ignoring the reckless actions of the driver who had no legal right to even be driving a car while under the influence of alcohol?

Why confine your efforts to just Lancaster. Do you want to weave one of your fictional tapestries about why Swift might have been leading such a reckless life? How many nights a week do you think he might have been spending in bars getting drunk, and then getting in his car and driving? You don't think the night of this accident was an isolated incident do you? Think he might have been a functioning alcoholic? Possibly have previous DUIs? Do you know whether he gave a **** about his life? Do you know whether he had a partner?

You seem fixated on the victim, but why was this 44 year old man out driving drunk at 2:15 am, something that he probably did regularly? Is that normal behavior for a middle aged man in your book?
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 03:51 am
@hawkeye10,
I am trying to put myself into that situation.

A bed is a bed... but, if I am going to be lectured and "saved" and I am so down and out, would I keep just riding into the night at that time, of the night and as you say, with a coat on as it's cold...

Or would I take the bed and deal with it, day by day denying...

I would say he was somewhere... Before riding off and had somewhere to go.

But you know again... I don't care that he was homeless... A vagabond, someone who didn't feel a responsibility with life, he had a life... Even trying to disect the situation before the facts come to reality if you, or anyone over there ever get to find that out, we have a responsibility to stay, if we hit something, someone... Or turn back... Not run...

My take
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 04:04 am
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
But you know again... I don't care that he was homeless... A vagabond, someone who didn't feel a responsibility with life, he had a life... Even trying to disect the situation before the facts come to reality if you, or anyone over there ever get to find that out, we have a responsibility to stay, if we hit something, someone... Or turn back... Not run


Justice demands that we look at the totality of what happened....if government policy encouraged a situation where a sleepy guy was riding around the streets of the city at 215 without proper lighting (all of which I have yet to prove) then we need to ask ourselves to what extent is the city of St Pete responsible for Barry's Death. The shelter has a curfew, unless the cops brought him in after a certain time (9pm I think) Barry had no option to go to the shelter......did that contribute to his death?

Right now everyone wants to blame Thom fully for what happened, but justice demands that we look at the parts that everyone played into this tragedy. I submit that a big part of why so many people are in such a rush to beat up on Thom is that they dont want the rest of the story to get a hearing, as that would muddy the waters as well as rust the halo's of those who presume to be saints. It is so much better to concentrate on the evil of drunk driving then to get into the muck of why Barry was on the road at that hour, what condition he was in and why, and what condition his bike was in and why.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 04:19 am
@hawkeye10,
Sigh.

This is reality...

It's all speculation is it not? The facts are not here yet...

It's called compassion.. for someone who has died... as a result of just riding around.

I 100% agree, Barry could have been negligent as well, driven on the wrong side, no lights ...

I admire you for being that "investigative person" given I worked in that Industry...

But the fact is we can go on, and on, and on, and on and oops I was right, no you were...

It's interesting but I have a different take.

Thom chose to drive (speculation) he was at a bar, it was after 2am (speculation) and he ran... then went OMG...

Suggests (speculation) he had a drink at least if not another... Man If I am awake at that hour I certainly did.

He will be made out to be probably a scape goat and that's sad... In as much as let's show people we don't tolerate anyone who drinks and drives.

But, if that proves to be the fact? He made that choice.

I get where you are coming from but how easy was it for him to catch a bus, a taxi? Verses a homeless guy who has NO money:) And rides his bike....

There I have to agree with firefly... He drank that's somewhere in it, regardless of percentages... and you loose your thought pattern... and like I said, most that drink at that time of the night want to continue all the way home, music up.

It is what it is...

Shall we wait now for the verdict?

Can you give me a thread on what you investigated that proved you to be correct? Not for any other reason than I'd like to see you be right as this is a passion for you and passions are important.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 04:31 am
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
It's all speculation is it not? The facts are not here yet..


Given our "justice" system we will NEVER get the facts. The lack of transparency of our government, and lack of willingness of the citizens to demand an accounting of the facts as well as lack of willingness to review of the governments performance is what has me riled up here.

Quote:
Shall we wait now for the verdict?


What verdict? We have a "let's make a deal" system here where 90% of the felony cases never get adjudicated because there is never a presentation of the facts for judgement . The state and Thom's representative will make a back room deal away from the eyes of the citizens and that will be that. Thom will agree to this because the state blackmails him into it, if he demands to go to trial he could end up with 30 years rather than the 13 that I figure the back room deal will likely net. Firefly is more than happy to blow the smoke up your ass that the 30 year threat does not matter because few people get the 30 years, but she knows damn well how much it matters. The threat is the perfect instrument for blackmailing the citizens, this is people lives we are talking about here, people will make a deal in the attempt to preserve some useful life after the government gets done taking its flesh.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jan, 2012 04:42 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Thom has no opportunity to argue that his diminished capacity had nothing to do with Barry's death.
firefly wrote:
A defense lawyer could try to argue that, but I doubt that one in his right mind would risk doing that at trial. If Lancaster died due to the trauma of being hit by Swift's car, you cannot eliminate the car and the driver from the death. You cannot argue convincingly that diminished capacity does not affect a person's ability to operate a motor vehicle or to avoid accidents--by definition, diminished capacity is affecting those abilities. That's why we have drunk driving laws.
Chances r that u r right, Firefly, but not necessarily.
Theoretically, if Barry approached from an opposite direction
and fell asleep or lost his balance for any reason, veering or tumbling
into the front of Thom's car, there'd be a situation wherein no matter
how far above the b.a.c. limit he was, the management of his car
had no effect upon the duration of Barry 's life.



firefly wrote:
* * *
Were there even skid marks to indicate that Swift tried to brake, or
did he just plow into Lancaster?
or the other way around ?



firefly wrote:
Even if there were no lights on Lancaster's bike, which we have no way of knowing, why didn't Swift see him at all before the man landed on his car? Did he have his car headlights on? Was the street absolutely, totally pitch black, with no street lights of any kind? Was Swift traveling fast, too fast if the conditions were foggy? Even if there was fog that night, why couldn't he swerve to avoid Lancaster, or hit the brakes, once the bike was within the range of his headlights ?
The density of the fog???




firefly wrote:
* * *
In this case, the bike was on the road,
traveling in the same direction as the car,
probably in front of the car.
How is this known ??



firefly wrote:
So, why didn't the driver see it before he hit it?
The driver of WHICH vehicle??



firefly wrote:
Suppose it had been a pedestrian walking in the road in the same direction as the car? Isn't a driver responsible for seeing him and going around him, or blowing a horn to alert him?
That requires meticulous analysis of the statutory law
and the interpretive judicial authority of Florida.

Additionally, the duties of the parties possibly might be affected
by administrative regulations and by local laws.
This must be left to the analyses, wisdom & experience of local counsel.




firefly wrote:
Every single accident I've ever had while driving, beside being hit in the rear at a red light, happened because I was either distracted or not paying enough attention. I've been driving since I was 16 and I haven't had many accidents at all, but the few I've had could probably all have been avoided by me, including the ones that were due to dumb mistakes of other drivers, if my mind hadn't been momentarily elsewhere for a few seconds.
With all respect, that 's not evidence in this case.



firefly wrote:
A great deal of driving involves defensive driving and accident avoidance, and watching out for pedestrians, bikers, pets running loose, children running into the street, and lousy drivers or drivers who might be drunk. And a drunk driver can't react as fast as a sober driver to avoid a sudden, unexpected situation. So, a defense attorney would have a hard time arguing that Swift's impaired state did not affect both Swift's ability to perceive Lancaster on that bike as well as his ability to perform the driving maneuvers that might have avoided a collision.
I don't take such a gloomy vu of it.
If I were admitted to practice in Florida and practicing,
I think I 'd have some fun with a defense of this case.




firefly wrote:
Which is why I don't think his defense attorney will take that tack unless there are witnesses who can say the collision was absolutely unavoidable by Swift for some reason, like extremely dense fog and no available streetlights and no lights on Lancaster's bike.
Practicing law is an ART. The same facts will inspire different
stategies in different artists; some r better than others.
I think Thom shud get himself an optimist.
Believe me when I say that there r no words to describe
the immensity of the gulf between GOOD, INSPIRED, trial practioners
and terrible ones, after several decades of experience. Its mindblowing.




firefly wrote:
But, if the fog was that dense, Swift should have been crawling along at a snail's pace, and therefore able to stop on a dime if he suddenly saw something in front of his car.
Maybe Thom's car was stopped
when Barry crashed into it from another direction.



firefly wrote:
DUI manslaughter in Florida simply requires that Swift contributed to Lancaster's death. And he certainly did that by hitting him with the car. To argue that Swift's impaired state was not a factor in that occurrence, Hawkeye, really does not make sense because there is no way of eliminating his impaired state from the situation. And, we don't know just how impaired he was, his BAC might have been considerably above .08 which would make it even more of a factor. But, if the defense can find some way of arguing it, I'm sure they will.
How much did Thom drink when he got home??



firefly wrote:
It's more likely the defense will challenge the BAC testing procedure, or the arrest procedures and when Swift was given his Miranda rights to try to get the BAC testing and Swift's "confession" to the police, about driving and hitting someone, thrown out. If the accident was not witnessed, the state has to have other evidence that Swift was behind the wheel when the car hit Lancaster because Swift did not remain at the scene. If he told police he was driving, as part of making an accident report, before he was given Miranda warnings, and he did not repeat that statement after being given the warnings, his statements cannot be used against him as the sole evidence he was driving. The state will have to find another way of establishing he was behind the wheel, and that might be easy or not easy.
U sound like a good lawyer to me, Firefly.
Have u been in practice long? In Florida?






firefly wrote:
And that sort of thing can be a bargaining chip for the defense in a plea deal.

But Hawkeye, all the legal wrangling between the prosecution and the defense, is also apart from the reality of the situation. Swift was driving drunk and he killed someone--and he knows that. So, whatever tactics his lawyers might use to get him a better plea deal, or even the tactics they might use to convince a jury at trial, are not necessarily reflective of the "truth" of the matter. I read about a case yesterday where a judge dismissed DUI charges against someone because the defense presented evidence that suggested the DUI arrest might have been made to meet a quota, which would be illegal on the part of the police. Did the legal dismissal of charges mean the person hadn't actually been driving drunk? No, they had been driving drunk, their lawyer just found a clever way to convince a judge to dismiss the charge.
Counsel is ethically required to ZEALOUSLY represent
the interests of his clients!



firefly wrote:
So legal guilt or innocence doesn't always comport with the "truth".

And, since we're not in a courtroom, and we're not bound by the legal rules and procedures that must be followed there, I think our discussion should be more real and less quasi-legal because we're not actually trying a criminal case here. Swift knows he was drunk and that he killed someone, and, according to jcboy, he is very depressed about that fact. So, beside whatever prison sentence he might or might not receive, that's a personal burden of guilt he will have to live with for the rest of his life.
I 've known of police who have been so distraught
(even with the support of mental health care professionals)
from killing criminals in self defense that thay committed suicide.




 

Related Topics

Can a thread be removed or locked? - Question by BeachBoy
dui - Question by sylvia chomas
Drinking and Driving Tip.... - Discussion by Slappy Doo Hoo
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/17/2025 at 03:30:59