I just don’t understand drinking and driving

@FOUND SOUL,

Between BillRM and Hawkeye it’s hard to tell which one is the biggest creep. They both remind me of some creepy Internet predators.

They’re both here because not many other forums would have kept them around this long.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

BillRM doesn't have the "courage of his convictions,"
he's just too dumb and stubborn to admit, or even recognize,
when he's wrong--and he never knows when to shut up.

U impugn Bill's bravery?? Do u ?

For quite a long time, I believed that Bill was stupid,
not only because of his posted liberalism & support of Democrats,
but also because of his ubiquitous syntactical errors. Eventually, I realized
that he is NOT stupid. In fact, he is or was
a successful engineer and apparently something of
a mathematician (whose practice requires precision).

From experience with Bill ( regardless of the fact that we have
clashed and that I deemed his controlling attitudes toward youth
to be offensive [in keeping with his anti-freedom liberalism] ),
I slowly learned to respect Bill 's ability to reason, even if he
disagrees with me, even if he cancels my vote in November,
as indeed, he will. There have been a lot of less intelligent liberals,
in this forum, in conspicuously poor states of mental health;
some have openly admitted to being in psychiatric care & mentally disabled.
( By far, of all the liberals in this forum, I hold Thomas in the highest esteem,
in his demonstrated ability to reason. His posts have also shown him to be a gentleman: polite & honorable. )

I also recognize your ability to reason, Firefly,
tho it has been my general observation that u can elect
not to put that ability into operation, on a results-oriented basis.
U r entitled to a lot of credit for your generosity in researching events
related to our threads n posting your findings. We r all better off for that added knowledge.
Firefly is an EXCELLENT researcher.

On the subject of the courage of someone's convictions,
there was an event of minor importance (if any),
wherein u said or implied that a citizen shud co-operate
with the police in giving statements related to crimes.

By way of challenging that idea as being eminently un-safe,
I offered 2 videos from very respectable authorities.
U refused to see them, on the basis of your not being in the mood.
U indicated, a few times, that u woud see them when u WERE in the mood.
That has never happened, so far as your answers have revealed,
for many months (for years, by now, maybe ???) That does not show good faith.

I infer that your ego lacks the strength to admit any of your mistakes,
such as that one, for example. To this date, u have not gotten
into the mood to see those videos, in refutation of your position.
That has a bearing upon the courage of your convictions, qua which u denounce Bill.

Do u ADMIT that u don't have the courage to admit your mistakes, Firefly ??

I have always been very, very quick to admit my mistakes
as soon as I became convinced of the error, until then
supporting the courage of my own convictions.

These r the videos that Firefly will see, when she gets into the mood:
James Duane is a Professor at Regent Law School in Virginia Beach, Virginia,
where he received the Faculty Excellence Award in the fall of 2002

Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Officer George Bruch, Virginia Beach Police Dept.

Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

What is your primary defense weapon?

A old model 19 S&M 357 revolver.

1 Reply

@firefly,

The break down would be heavily in favor of the low end BAC drivers with roadblock check points and if they care to focus on the higher end BAC drivers they would be out with the same manpower patroling the damn highways instead.

2 Replies

@BillRM,

DAVID wrote:

What is your primary defense weapon?

BillRM wrote:

A old model 19 S&M 357 revolver.

I 'm glad that u chose a revolver.
I don't consider automatics to be safe; jam too much.

If u don 't mind my asking,
how did u decide in favor of .357 in preference to .44 (if u want a magnum revolver)??

In my opinion, STOPPING POWER is and shud be the dispositive criterion.
For that specific purpose: the size of the slug matters.

My bullet configuration of choice is hollowpoint, with W I D E cavities.
What do u prefer ?

David

1 Reply

@FOUND SOUL,

An feeling like you are going to vomit is somehow degrade a person driving skills more then say having cramps and the emotional swings of having a bad period?

Or to get away from the sexual differences how about driving when in the middle of the emotional upset in going through a divorce male or female?

Quote:

And, Hawkeye stated he "would" pay someone more and encourage them to Management

So a employee with the title of manager would care for getting the job done but not others without that title?

The railroad was very light on managers and the employees was spread out over hundreds of miles with a large percent of them working alone.

When I was working towers, draw bridges and ticket stations there was no manager around to oversee my work.

Once and only once in five years an audit team did show up to look at one of the station books but a "manager" there was no such thing other then getting assignments once a week and maybe dropping into Long Branch if I needed to get keys and safe combinations. If my "manager" was not busy as hell we might talk about how things was going for a minute or so.

Below is two examples of the very rare interactions I had with my 'manager'.

Someone who last day as a summer employee had ended had not then balance the books the night before and it was a real mess and I then call the dispatcher my 'manager' to ask him should I open up without the books and cash on hand being balance or not? With the understanding that if I did so I would not be held responsible for any possible short fall. He said hell yes.

Somehow I do not think that gentleman was offer another summer job.

Then there was a problem in a block signal system of a draw bridge I was working at that would had tied up the morning rail traffic and I call the Dispatcher on the private line and inform him that I could bypass the problem until the repair man got there but if he wish me to do so he would need to cover my ass for doing so.

When the repairman did show up and begin to give me hell for my wirings I just call the dispatcher and have him talk to the man.

Quote:

how much money did you get Bill ? From your ex-employer and what did you do with it?

Odd thing to wish to know but 20 thousands and I put in the maximum into a IRA and the rest into a mutual fund.

Not a big sum for the higher pay employees but a real wind fall for the lower pay ones that been with the company the longest at that time.

One assemble line worker I know of got 30,000 dollars and you would think she had won the lottery.

Given that the founders did not owe us [employees] anything it was one hell of a nice thing for them to do.

1 Reply

@FOUND SOUL,

She is more then willing in fact eager to launch personal attacks using informations others had share with the group and yet she does not reveal anything about her background.

Given that every one else here had drop private information as a matter of course over the years it is more then strange that she stand out for not doing so.

Would be just a little strange but not a big deal except for her love of using others willingness to share as a weapon against them.

As far as she being amusing and a good sport just try disagreeing with just one subjects she care about.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

An feeling like you are going to vomit is somehow degrade a person driving skills more then say having cramps and the emotional swings of having a bad period?

Like I said. Sexist. And, un-educated. If a woman has severe cramps, she can't drive, because she for most of the part is bent over in pain.. Thus, usually taking medication to relieve, thus therefore being unable to drive..

Quote:

Or to get away from the sexual differences how about driving when in the middle of the emotional upset in going through a divorce male or female?

Thankyou... But, where is your case here? You were sick. You knew you felt that you wanted to vomit. Reckless. Dangerous. If a person is emotional, and going through a Divorce, what are they thinking about? Getting to work? Getting to the Course on time? Or, their Divorce..

"I'm sorry your Honor, I purely wasn't thinking at all, I am going through Divorce at present. "

"I'm sorry your Honor, I knew I should not have driven, I felt sick, like I wanted to vomit, I knew it was risky, and off course I did vomit and felt nauseous before and after".

Quote:

So a employee with the title of manager would care for getting the job done but not others without that title?

You are the one that decided on my behalf, that because I am an owner of a business, I don't value employees and I've never helped them, rewarded them, been there for them personally or financially. Now you are the person, suggesting that only Managers would get a job done.

Don't take my words out of context. Someone with passion is the one that will work for you and work hard for you but to love their job, they also have to respect their employer and be encouraged to succeed within their position by that person..

You have a hangup of self-employed people.. You feel that you were a responsible worker and I am not disputing that at all, there were no Managers to over-see you, so you had to fend for yourself and more than likely, felt that you were Management material. But, that is different than being a business owner that you seem to put down the concept of, feeling that all business owners in general don't value their staff.

I would say that is your problem. You were not valued for what you did.

However, you were rewarded from a large Corporation who respected all that all of you did. Most owners actually do Bill.. Only the sharks don't give a damn.

I asked because I was curious as to whether this "gift" , "donation" was used soley for yourself and it was, or whether as it was a "gift", "donation" whether you would have given even 10% to a charity... You know, what comes around goes around?

But, I expected the answer I got. I kept it all.

Why are you addressing Firefly to me? Can't handle two women on one thread? Smile

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@OmSigDAVID,

David a co-worker had the revolver many decades ago and offer to allow me to take it shotting and I then fell madly in love with it.

He did not wish to sell it to me but I kept annoying him over the matter and for a very high price he did in the end sold the gun to me.

At the time I was getting unhappy with my model 1911 45 jamming even to be fair I was mostly using reloads at the range with it.

Still reloads or no reloads the idea that even the very best semi auto could jam at the worst possible moment had enter my mind.

1 Reply

Those two might as well post their Virginia's online.

1 Reply

@FOUND SOUL,

You are doing a Firefly on me as it was you that said that it only the paycheck that matter or would get a employee out of a sick bed and he or she had no obligation to get a job done sick or not sick as that is the owner problem to plug in someone else at the last moment not the employee concern.

Quote:

You have a hangup of self-employed people.. You feel that you were a responsible worker and I am not disputing that at all, there were no Managers to over-see you, so you had to fend for yourself and more than likely, felt that you were Management material.

Never never wish to be a manager my love was engineering not managing others even at times I needed to act in that role as one of the most senior and trusted employee in the department.

Kind of similar to the co-founder of Apple Wozniak who even as a millionaire many times over wish to only work as an engineer for Apple not a manager of any type.

A gentleman come into the company as a young man and was a ball of fired over the years in handling problems and I got behind him and lobby for his promotion to management not mine.

He turn out to be a fine manager and we work together very well indeed over the years.

In a strange way you might said in that case I picked my own manager at least until the SOBs promote him away from my department.

Mostly however I got along fine with all my direct managers as they knew I was not interest in their jobs and tend to make them look good beside.

Oh side note the chart of any large company command structure/ power structure is never never completely reflect the real situation due to personal relationships and trust that is not shown on the chart. There is a lot of side channels communication ongoing.

If there was a problem on the production floor two buildings over the odds are the issue would be address by a "low" level person on the floor who knew me calling me and asking me for advice and help.

I did not love managing people but I love solving problems.

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@FOUND SOUL,

I love the attack that I kept the gift however I have nothing to be ashame of myself over the years in helping out friends in need.

Lost track of the 'loans' I had make with no dream that the 'loans' would ever be paid back or the times I went over to friends homes and help them in getting a computer systems up and running or in one case taking a day off from work and going downtown with a co-worker to help her straighten out a problem she was having over the guardianship paperwork of her adult/disable son. She was not comfortable in dealing with the chief clerk of the court herself and I had no problem in such areas.

Or for that matter giving a co-worker my old car instead of selling it so her son could have a car to go to college.

Not one to have Good Will taking money out of my paycheck for example and having the local good will chairperson being paid many hundreds of thousands of dollars out of those funds.

Not one to send funds to the humane society but will spend over a thousand dollars on taking care of and finding homes for the kittens of a mother cat who come to my door.

I must be on the cat internet as that happen two times in the last three years.

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@Keith424,

Keith424 wrote:

Those two might as well post their Virginia's online.

Will u define "Virginia's" for us ?

To which 2 do u refer ?

David

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

The break down would be heavily in favor of the low end BAC drivers with roadblock check points and if they care to focus on the higher end BAC drivers they would be out with the same manpower patroling the damn highways instead.

David may respect your ability to reason, but I sure don't.

Quote:

In 2011, 29,257 motorists were arrested for DWI, the average alcohol-concentration of an offender was 0.16.
http://www.echopress.com/event/article/id/97501/group/News

When the average BAC of the person they arrested for DUI is ,16 they are definitely arresting those toward the higher end.

When you try to distort actual data--like the average BAC of the 29, 257 motorists arrested was .16--by claiming that, "The break down would be heavily in favor of the low end BAC drivers," then either you don't know or understand what the term "average" means (it's a measure of central tendency, generally a mean), or you are so unable to admit you're wrong that you don't care what kind of fool you make of yourself with idiotic statements.

It is pointless to continue pursuing the issue with you.

The point is, in Minnesota, in the past five years, they have significantly reduced the number of drunk driving deaths by 34% and reduced them by 40% over the past decade--so what they are doing, in terms of enhanced education campaigns, enhanced law enforcement, and having a legal BAC at .08 is working.

For anyone interested in the issue of public safety, that's good news. The aim is to reduce drunk driving deaths, and they're accomplishing that.

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In parts of Kansas this weekend, they'll use electronic search warrents, to require a blood test, if a driver refuses to take a breathalyzer test.

Quote:

Officials use electronic enforcement to battle drunk driving

SALINA, Kansas -- Some Kansas officers will be getting some electronic help to take drunk drivers off the road this weekend.

Friday night through Saturday morning the Salina Police Department and Saline County Sheriff's Office will have a saturation patrol.

The program will put more officers on the street to search for people who are drinking and driving.

Now, if a driver refuses to take a breathalyzer test, officers will be able to submit an electronic search warrant.

The warrant would ask for the judge's signature to require the driver take a blood test.

In the past, officers would have to go to the judges home after hours to get the warrant signed.

Now, they just need an electronic signature via iPad, a concept first used in Kansas in Douglas County.

"New way of doing things to save people time," said Salina Police Lieutenant Russ Lamer.

The benefit of the electronic signature is the quick turnaround, saving half the time for those involved.

"Drinking and driving is a very dangerous crime," said Lt. Lamer. "It's one of the most dangerous committed on our streets."

Now its a crime that is getting some help with electronic enforcement.

The saturation patrol will be Friday, September 7th from 11:30p.m. until Saturday, September 8th at 2:30a.m.
http://www.ksn.com/content/news/bureaus/story/Officials-use-electronic-enforcement-to-battle/8D9xboApZk-7vVBIB4qw3A.cspx

And, in Indiana, they are also cracking down on those refusing to take Breathalyzer tests.

Quote:

Drivers suspected of drunk driving could get jail time fo refusing a test
By Ellie Bogue of The News-Sentinel
September 5, 2012

In a press conference Wednesday afternoon Allen County Prosecutor Karen Richards announced they have come up with tougher measures to assist officers when subjects refuse a Breathalyzer test.

For the first time this past weekend the Allen County's Prosecutor's office obtained search warrants for blood draws on people who refuse to be tested. Four warrants were served this weekend; the blood draws are being done at the county jail. By the end of the weekend the process of obtaining the search warrant took 20 minutes. Judges and lawyers have been equipped with fax machines. There will no longer be the option of refusing to be tested.

“There were two people who would have refused over the weekend who then went ahead and agreed to the Breathalyzer after hearing they would have to have a blood draw,” said Deputy Prosecutor Michael McAlexander.

Richards said they hadn't moved to this sooner because they needed to find a low cost facility open 24/7 to take the blood. By using the jail nurse, who is already on duty, there will be no cost. The samples are then sent to the State Department of Toxicology for analysis.

“No longer in Allen County are you going to be able to refuse a test,” Richards said.

If someone still refuses to comply with the search warrant Richards said, officers have two options, they can charge them with resisting law enforcement or take them in front of a judge for a contempt of court hearing. If they are cited for contempt of court they can get 180 days in jail with no time off for good behavior.

“I am assuming what will happen is people will stop refusing the breath test and hopefully people will become smarter about drinking and driving and hopefully through this project we will make the streets safer, and if we don't make the streets safer we will at least be able to prosecute the people we weren't able to prosecute before,” Richards said.

Richards said they have been working on this for the past year. It took being able to use the jail nurse for no charge to make it work. They also had to come up with a protocol for all parties as to how the process would work.

Several small counties around the area are already doing this.

“Whitley County is already using this,” Indiana State Police Sgt. Ron Galaviz, PIO for the Fort Wayne Post, said.

When a blood draw is done a full toxicology screen is run so whatever is in the person's blood stream, be it alcohol or some other illegal substance, will be discovered. In theory it would make more sense to do a blood draw on every arrest, but that cost is prohibitive.

Previously if someone refused a breath tests or blood test they could only suspend their driver's license. Without the evidence it was much harder to prosecute Richards said.
http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120905/NEWS/120909794/-1/LIVING

3 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

The break down would be heavily in favor of the low end BAC drivers with roadblock check points and if they care to focus on the higher end BAC drivers they would be out with the same manpower patroling the damn highways instead.

You really don't understand statistics, or police procedures, at all, do you?

The problem here is that you're making assumptions. You've made an assumption about the distribution of BAC levels, or that every single driver underwent a breathalyzer, or both.

Perhaps BAC levels are heavily polarized between no alcohol, and a lot of alcohol.

A better guess is that the police first did a preliminary screen to determine suspected impairment, and then tested BAC levels.

But it remains clear that you're completely out of your depth in this conversation.....

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

David, a co-worker had the revolver many decades ago and offered to allow me
to take it shooting and I then fell madly in love with it.

Intellectually, emotionally, I find that to be very understandable.
Please tell us WHICH revolver was it was ???????????
caliber & manufacturer ??????????????????

BillRM wrote:

He did not wish to sell it to me but I kept annoying him over the matter
and for a very high price he did in the end sell the gun to me.

WHICH revolver WAS it??

I prefer short, 2 inch revolvers, for the most part.
My primary defense weapon (illustrated hereinabove) is a 2 inch revolver.

BillRM wrote:

At the time I was getting unhappy with my model 1911 .45 jamming.
Even to be fair, I was mostly using reloads at the range with it.

That is AGREED, with enthusiasm.
DON'T ` cheap out, Bill.
It is of existential importance: YOUR existence;
plus the existence of anyone who u love.

I think that shud probably count for SOMETHING.

USE RELIABLE AMMUNITION!

BillRM wrote:

Still reloads or no reloads the idea that even the very best semi auto could jam
at the worst possible moment had entered my mind.

WITH GOOD REASON, BILL.
REMEMBER that lesson.

MY preferred bullet configuration is hollowpointed slugs with W - I - D - E cavities.

What is your preference in bullet configuration ??

David

0 Replies

@DrewDad,

Quote:

Perhaps BAC levels are heavily polarized between no alcohol, and a lot of alcohol.

BillRM was responding to data about drunk driving arrests in Minnesota. Since arrests were made, it's reasonable to assume that the drivers arrested had a BAC=.08+, since .08 is the legal limit. So the range of BAC levels within the arrested group would start from .08 at the low end.

They found that the average driver arrested had a BAC level of .16--or twice the legal limit.

You're quite right, BillRM made an assumption about the distribution of BAC levels within that arrested group. And, without any justification for his thinking, somehow concluded that, "The break down would be heavily in favor of the low end BAC drivers."

But, if the average driver arrested had a BAC=.16, in a range that began at a low of .08, Bill's conclusion makes no sense.

An "average score" in a distribution is generally arrived at in one of three ways--by calculating either the mean, median, or mode in the range of acores
The mean is the arithmetic average of a set of given numbers.

The median is the middle score in a set of given numbers.

The mode is the most frequently occurring score in a set of given numbers.

No matter which of those three methods was used to determine the average BAC level of .16 among the arrested drivers, it would not justify a conclusion that the average BAC was "heavily in favor of the low end BAC drivers" (who would be at .08). If, in fact, it "heavily favored" the low end, the average BAC level of those arrested should have been much closer to .09. The "average" BAC level of the group arrested most definitely would not have been twice the legal limit (.16) if it "heavily favored" the low end (.08), because there is no way that would be possible.

So, I've come to some conclusions:

1. BillRM just ignored the actual data from Minnesota, and simply made an irrelevant statement that was unrelated to it. And the irrelevant statement he did make is also not supported by any factual information or statistical data.
He doesn't know that the majority of those 29,257 arrests weren't made by police patrolling the roads, rather than at checkpoints, and, if that's the case, his comment was meaningless as well as irrelevant.
and/or
2. BillRM doesn't have the foggiest idea of what the term "average" means, or how it's computed or arrived at, which is why his conclusions are wrong.
and/or
3. BillRM's idea of a "low end" BAC is close to twice the legal limit.

And, it all adds up to what you said to him:

Quote:

But it remains clear that you're completely out of your depth in this conversation.....

And I couldn't agree with you more.

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@firefly,

Quote:

In parts of Kansas this weekend, they'll use electronic search warrents, to require a blood test, if a driver refuses to take a breathalyzer test.

Once more another fine example of the police wasting resources going after the low end BAC drivers that can not be proven to be over the limit without blood/breathe tests.

It the cash flow not public safety that the police are looking to improve by this nonsense.

Let not worry about the few .15 and such drivers on the highway that are likely to drift into the oncoming lane or rear end another car at 60 mph or enter the highway the wrong way as we need to search for the far more common drivers so little impair it take such tests to prove they are breaking the law.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Oh I also like the concept of giving the police an electronic judge with a rubber stamp in their back pockets.

Bet the founders are spinning in their graves on that idea.

No problem if you wish to search someone home or car of body fluids just whip out the ipod and full in a few blanks on the form.

0 Replies

I just don’t understand drinking and driving

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