43
   

I just don’t understand drinking and driving

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 03:50 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
There was never any doubt about the state having Goodman by the balls, and his lawyers must have known this from day one. They put on a show in return for a very hefty paycheck

What you call "putting on a show" is the work of defense attorneys to defend their clients from from the charges of the state--they force the state to fulfill their burden of proof. Since that's what keeps the state from "hammering citizens," I'd think you'd applaud their efforts.

Goodman was guilty, just as charged, and that's why they couldn't raise reasonable doubt--the state's evidence in support of the charges was simply too strong.

And the same may be true in Swift's case.

I don't approve of show trials here or anywhere....the way the laws are written it is increasingly impossible to mount a defense to the state's allegations. Was there an accident analysis in the goodman case that allowed him to argue that this was not his fault? Did that state need to prove through analysis that Goodman could have avoided what happened? Bloody unlikely....all the state needs to prove is that goodman was reckless, which is proven by him DUIing, the rest is conversation in the attempt to maintain the charade that we do justice in America.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 03:51 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Damn good plead deal and he did claimed he was drinking after the accident so the BAC reading a few hours afterward was very questionable and that is likely why he got such a nice deal.

No, you idiot, he pled No Contest to DUI--he was sentenced on a DUI charge. That means he was DUI at the time of the accident.
He just wasn't found to be responsible for the accident that caused the other man's injuries. The other man caused the accident by running, on foot, directly into his car.

You really never know when to admit you are wrong.

Whether Swift's attorney can even use the "he got drunk after the accident" will depend on how strong the state's evidence is that he was drunk at the time of the accident--what sort of drinking behavior he displayed in the bar, how many drinks were served to him, what winesses saw him consume, his bar tab, his physical condition when he left the bar, etc.

Jurors aren't dumb, reasonable doubt has to reasonable--they know the guy is trying to get out of a DUI charge. Besides, it would have been the leaving the scene, that allowed him to drink after the accident, and that action is likely to be viewed unfavorably, so jurors aren't looking to just speculate that he might have consumed alcohol later, they really look for evidence that he did consume it after the accident. In Goodman's case, there was no evidence, it was just speculation, and the jury didn't buy it.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 04:05 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

There was never any doubt about the state having Goodman by the balls, and his lawyers must have known this from day one. They put on a show in return for a very hefty paycheck. Nice work if you can get it.

Wait. Where's the whole rant about plea bargaining and how it's tilted the balance of power in favor of the state?

Surely, you don't mean to imply that if someone is actually guilty that they should, I don't know, plea bargain to avoid the unnecessary expense of a hopeless defense?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 04:08 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
No, you idiot, he pled No Contest to DUI--he was sentenced on a DUI charge. That means he was DUI at the time of the accident.
He just wasn't found to be responsible for the accident that caused the other man's injuries. The other man caused the accident by running, on foot, directly into his car.


Are you being stupid or just dishonest?

Yes he plead guilty or to be more correct no contest to DUI where an accident that resulted in someone being so badly harm that he never recover and in fact die a few years later on and got off with a minimum level of punishment for a DUI.The plea deal was a great one for him and the most likely reason is because he was not tested for hours afterward and was claiming to had been drinking during that period of time.

So if he had roll the dices he might had gotten off and therefore was offer such a very nice plea deal.

As far as it being the other man fault your position for most of this thread is that it did not matter if the cyclist was at fault or not all that matter was that Swift was driving with a high BAC level now you are changing your tune.

Rick Sanchez was driving in daylight on a parking lot where you would expect people to be coming out of between park cars not late at night where most people are not looking for unlit cyclists on the roadways.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 04:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Was there an accident analysis in the goodman case that allowed him to argue that this was not his fault? Did that state need to prove through analysis that Goodman could have avoided what happened? Bloody unlikely....all the state needs to prove is that goodman was reckless, which is proven by him DUIing.

Are you kidding? They had experts--for both sides--that analyzed the accident in great detail. That's what this trial was all about. This was no "show trial".

Could Goodman have avoided the accident? He sure could have if he hadn't been speeding right through a stop sign causing him to broadside the other car and push it into a canal. The other driver had the right of way.

The defense tried to argue that Goodman's well maintained $200,000 Bentley malfunctioned, and suddenly accelerated, propelling him through the stop sign. Yeah, sure. Except they couldn't prove that.

The state proved that Goodman was reckless and caused a Vehicular Homicide and he was additionally guilty of DUI manslaughter--he was found guilty of both charges--and that he additionally failed to aid the victim on both of those charges.

You're the one who wants to see jury trials, then you don't bother to watch them. Laughing You would have learned a lot from this one--like how real cases of this type are actually tried, what evidence is required, how it is gathered, etc.. The state met it's burden of proof for those jurors, the prosecution covered all the bases. Goodman was guilty as charged, and that's why the defense couldn't raise sufficient reasonable doubt..
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 04:33 pm
@BillRM,
A DUI is a DUI, you jerk. He was DUI at the time of the accident.
If the state hadn't been able to support that charge, he would have fought it--he didn't, he pleaded No Contest--to being DUI.

You are confusing the initial reports of this accident, where his lawyer floated possible future defense strategies, like "he drank after the accident", with what actually took place later, after it was determined that his operation of his motor vehicle did not cause the man's injuries--the other man was drunk and ran, on foot, directly into his car.
Quote:
As far as it being the other man fault your position for most of this thread is that it did not matter if the cyclist was at fault or not

It's your buddy Hawkeye that's been saying that--he claims just being DUI makes the accident automatically the fault of the DUI driver.

The few facts of the Swift accident that we do know, suggest that the fault was with the driver of the car, Swift, being inattentive to the road ahead of him, which is why he plowed into the cyclist. But the accident has been well investigated, by both sides, and those results are known to the parties actually involved in the case. So, your continued speculation about the bike or cyclist is really quite meaningless--those involved already know what actually happened and who was at fault.

The "he got drunk after the accident" excuse is a very difficult excuse for a defense attorney to prove to get a client out of a DUI, particularly if the state can present compelling evidence that Swift was DUI at the time of the accident.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 04:46 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
If the state hadn't been able to support that charge, he would have fought it--he didn't, he pleaded No Contest.


Real jail times in real jail times and if he had lost the judge very well could have given him that punishment instead of the minimum for that crime and he could had also been charge with harming the man he ran over beside by the DA.

That the whole reason for plea deals and you can not be that stupid so I guess you are being your charming dishonest self.

Quote:
It's your buddy Hawkeye that's been saying that


An you also for at least 80 percents of this thread.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 04:48 pm
@BillRM,
Plea deals in DUI cases save the state, and the defendant, the expense of a trial that's very likely to end in a conviction--because the defendant is, in fact, guilty as charged.

You don't know what you are talking about--and you just can't stop talking. Laughing You are a silly fool.

Goodman just had the best defense money can buy--but that won't get you off when the facts all point to your guilt.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 05:16 pm
@firefly,
Sure I don't dear as only you are the legal expert here and once more the only BAC readings they had on the man was two or so hours later after he been home and claiming that he had been drinking at home after the driving and the accident was in the past to calm his nerves.

As his lawyer stated therefore the worth of that BAC reading in proving him guilty of DUI driving were in great question and without that the case was a likely toss up at best.

Yes I also know that you love plea deals as it allow the state to pressure anyone to plea out no matter if they are guilty or innocent and if they go the route of demanding their rights to a trial and lose the state will punish them on average to five times the punishments then if they had just roll over and taken a deal.


firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 07:57 pm
@BillRM,
Goodman's BAC was measured, I think, 3 hours after the accident.

He left the scene, and claims he spent at least 20 minutes in a barn that had a fully stocked bar. The defense claimed he downed a 1/2 bottle of booze during that time to "ease his pain"--because that would have been the amount necessary to get his BAC level up to .17, the level he had when his blood was drawn in the ER, since he claimed he had only 3 drinks prior to the accident.

The state claimed he had considerably more than 3 drinks prior to the accident and that he was DUI at the time of the accident.

Toxicology experts testified for both sides.

Goodman was just convicted of DUI.

Juries are not dumb. They know that someone charged with DUI, who leaves the scene of an accident, which is an illegal act in and of itself, will try to then claim they ingested alcohol after the accident, during the interval between the accident and the time the blood was drawn, to try to beat the DUI charge. But, if there is no evidence--like a witness--that this "after the accident" drinking actually took place, juries are not likely to buy it. They are far more likely to accept the state's evidence of DUI at the time of the accident. Just because drinking might have taken place after the accident, does not raise enough reasonable doubt about the state's evidence of DUI at the time of the accident. I just watched excellent defense attorneys try to sell this story to a jury and it didn't work--they convicted Goodman because the state's version of events was more credible than that offered by the defense.

Most people charged with DUI are guilty. The BAC evidence is difficult to refute. And that's particularly true in DUI manslaughter cases where the BAC level is measured directly from the blood and not by Breathalyzer.

And, in Swift's case, as was the case with Goodman, they know exactly where he was drinking prior to the accident, and they can estimate how much Swift drank at that bar, and what his BAC was at the time of the accident.

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 08:19 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Juries are not dumb. They know that someone charged with DUI, who leaves the scene of an accident, which is an illegal act


Some juries are bright and some are as dumb as a pet rock it the luck of the draw.

Second in the case of Sanchez he claimed he misunderstood the cop on the scene that he could go home so the fleeing get a little doubt full as he did wait and talk to a cop before leaving.

But it is a dice game as far as juries are concern that for sure one way or another look at the OJ criminal jury in the murder case for an example of that.

Hell there are people earning good livings helping lawyers selected jurors for that matter.
MMarciano
 
  3  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 08:30 pm
Since Morgan started this thread every time he and I go out we run into someone in town whom is following this case in the community, people drive by our house and honk the horn when they see us out! Everyone who knows Thom knows it wasn’t Thom’s first time driving home drunk.

Thom drove home drunk and the result was the death of another. That’s what this case is about.

The result is he’s facing prison time. No mistake about it.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 08:54 pm
@MMarciano,
Quote:
Thom drove home drunk and the result was the death of another. That’s what this case is about.

The result is he’s facing prison time. No mistake about it.



Well it look like there is no need for a trial just sentence the man to prison.

It would be amusing if his lawyers are also monitoring this website and will end up using such postings as your to ask the courts for a change of venue.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 09:00 pm
@BillRM,
why would that amuse you, bill?

you have a very odd sense of what's funny...
0 Replies
 
MMarciano
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 09:03 pm
@BillRM,
Oh they are!
Some have been subpoenaed to testify for the prosecution.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 09:09 pm
@BillRM,
Swift is in deep trouble--on all the charges.

The state will present evidence to back up every element of those charges--just as they did with Goodman.

You just can't accept that most people charged with DUI are actually guilty as charged. BAC evidence is powerful evidence. They will be able to estimate Swift's BAC at the time of the accident.

And they have already investigated and reconstructed the accident--they know what happened and how and why it happened.

If you know the probability is strong that you will lose at trial, because sufficient reasonable doubt cannot be raised, and you really are guilty, you'd be a fool to risk a conviction on the most serious charges, which carry the most serious penalties, rather than take a plea deal to lesser charges and/or lessor penalties.
The biggest incentive to taking a plea deal is the state's strong evidence of your guilt.

I don't know whether they even offered a plea to Goodman, but I think they might have offered him 15 years and he turned it down--now he could face 30 years because he was convicted of all charges.

The failure to aid charge is really quite serious, and emotional, when presented to a jury--both Goodman and Swift left their victims to die. Actually Swift's case is even worse than Goodman's.

Goodman might not have seen the other car in the canal, but he knew he was in a very serious accident, and his cell phone really wasn't working. He did go off in search of a phone, but he took his time getting to one and his first call wasn't to 911--it was to his girlfriend. And the jury convicted him of failing to aid. His victim could have survived if someone had gotten him out of that car in time--he died of drowning, not from injuries. Others who came upon the accident scene called 911 long before Goodman did.

Swift knew he hit a human being, and he kept on driving. I can't imagine any excuse a jury would buy to explain away why he didn't stop his car to even see the condition of his victim. At trial, and even in plea negotiations, the state will paint him as being heartless and totally irresponsible in leaving a man to die in the road, without even stopping to look at him. They'll be able to convict him on that charge if it goes to trial.

So, if the state can nail him on the DUI, and operating his motor vehicle in a way that caused, or contributed to, the death of the cyclist, and failing to offer any sort of immediate aid to the victim at the scene, and leaving the scene, why on earth would Swift want to go to trial if a plea deal offers lower penalties than he would face if convicted of those charges at trial?

The only issue is whether the state even offers Swift a plea deal, and what kind of leverage his attorney might find to get him a decent plea deal.




0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 03:02 pm
Quote:
Attorney's eloquence couldn't beat evidence in Goodman case
By Jane Musgrave and Christine Stapleton
Palm Beach Post Staff Writers
March 24, 2012

WEST PALM BEACH — Ignoring a gaggle of reporters who shoved microphones and cameras at him, famed Miami attorney Roy Black walked from the Palm Beach County Courthouse into a waiting black SUV without uttering a word about why a jury on Friday rejected his claims that John Goodman was innocent.

If he was surprised or disappointed, local attorneys said, he had no reason to be. Even an attorney of Black's formidable skills can't trump the facts, they said.

"A lawyer doesn't win or lose a case; the evidence does," said attorney Michael Salnick. "It's not a matter of who the lawyer is or the lawyer's eloquence. In the end, it's the evidence."

And, he and others said, in Goodman's case much of the evidence was simply insurmountable.

Three hours after his Bentley plowed into Scott Wilson's Hyundai, Goodman's blood-alcohol level was more than two times the limit at which a person is legally presumed too drunk to drive. Further, when he finally found a phone to summon help, he didn't dial 911. He called his girlfriend and his horse manager. Meanwhile, Wilson drowned.

"That was difficult and tough evidence to overcome," Salnick said.

The blood-alcohol level was bad, he said. But the delay in calling 911 might have been worse.

"I think what was difficult was that there was contact with someone other than police after the collision," he said. From a young age, people are taught that their first call in an emergency should be 911. That Goodman phoned friends who would help him instead of calling law enforcement officials who would help others was damning, he said.

Attorney David Roth said the blood-alcohol test and traces of hydrocodone found in Goodman's system made any defense difficult.

"Any time you have illicit drugs or drugs that are not used as prescribed, alcohol and a decedent, it is almost insurmountable for the defense," he said.

Further, attorney Richard Lubin said Goodman's explanations for what happened just didn't add up.

"There had to be too many explanations accepted for there to be reasonable doubt: 'My car malfunctioned. I drank after the accident. I didn't know there was a car in the canal. I didn't know I hit a car,' " Lubin said, ticking off the various reasons offered for Goodman's behavior. "I thought Roy did a good job with what he had."

Black, Roth said, also had another steep obstacle to overcome: seasoned and skilled opponents.

Assistant State Attorney Ellen Roberts has spent her lengthy career prosecuting traffic homicide cases. She is no stranger to high-profile trials. She and fellow prosecutor Sherri Collins skillfully countered Black's attempts to explain his client's actions away, convincing the jury the explanations didn't make sense, attorneys said.

Regardless of whatever plausible theories may be presented, ultimately a juror has to rely on his or her common sense, Salnick said. Several of the defense theories, such as saying Goodman drank after the accident to ease his pain, had to produce silent groans from jurors. He said he could almost hear them saying, "Come on."

"No matter who the lawyer was, those are things that are not going to be overcome," he said.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime/attorneys-eloquence-couldnt-beat-evidence-in-goodman-case-2258063.html

It does all boil down to the evidence--and the evidence of an illegal BAC level for driving is the most damning evidence of all.

What's interesting in the Goodman case, is that the prosecutors did not establish how many drinks he had prior to the accident--no witness could say they saw him have more than 3 or 4 drinks, or that he seemed impaired to them--and that did not matter to the jurors. The fact that his BAC was .17 three hours after the accident, and the sheer implausibility that this was due to consuming a great deal of alcohol after the accident, as well as the driving behavior that led to the accident, led the jurors to the obvious, common sense, conclusion that the man was quite drunk when he plowed into another car, and exactly how that alcohol got into his system was irrelevant in determining his guilt regarding DUI.

And Goodman's lack of concern for the driver of the other vehicle--his failure to aid--was also obvious to the jurors by Goodman's own behavior and the fact that his first phone call, almost an hour after the accident, was not to 911. He knew he was in a lot of trouble, he knew he had been driving drunk, he knew he had just been involved in a terrible accident, and his main concern was his own situation.

There are limits to what even the most skillful defense attorneys can do when confronted with such compelling evidence regarding a client's guilt. And that's the reason that most DUI cases of this type are resolved with plea deals--the defendant is guilty, and the evidence of that is hard to refute.

The prosecutors weren't celebrating this victory--the lead prosecutor repeatedly referred to these traffic DUI homicides as "tragedies"--for everyone involved-- and the verdict that holds someone responsible for a needless death, while a just outcome, isn't cause for elation on anyone's part. John Goodman didn't consciously want to kill anyone that night, nor did Thom Swift consciously want to kill anyone that night in December. But both of them laid the groundwork for tragedy by getting behind the wheels of their cars drunk.

I can feel compassion for Swift, I'm sure he's a basically decent guy, and he's now in a situation that's largely beyond his control and one that will determine the direction of his life for the next several years. I hope that he has the stamina to handle whatever comes next for him. Perhaps because others posting in this thread know him, he's not just an impersonal news item for me, I am very much aware that we are talking about a very real person who has every reason to be quite apprehensive about his future right now. At the same time, I am also aware that another man, Barry Lancaster, lost his life that night, and, for him, there is no future. There is no way to view this situation except as a tragedy, a very needless tragedy, for everyone involved.

What I would hope is that this tragedy actually registers with the people who move in the same social circles as Swift, frequent the same watering holes, engage in the same sort of drinking, and then get in their cars and drive. I'd hope it leads to more people having a heightened awareness and the courage to start telling others that they're not in condition to get into their cars. The intoxicated person may not be thinking, and, for that reason, others, with better judgment, have to begin making more noise. It shouldn't be expected, and accepted, that people will get loaded in a bar and then get in their cars and drive--others should start butting in and saying, "Whoa! You've had too much to drink to drive"--and they should know how many drinks it takes to get someone to that level because outward appearances can be deceptive, heavy drinkers can often "hold their liquor" and mask the signs of intoxication.

While drunken drivers are responsible for their own behaviors, those who are silent witnesses to watching someone get drunk, and then get into a car, should consider how much they enable such behavior by maintaining their silence. Bemoaning tragedies after the fact is rather useless, trying to prevent them from happening makes far more sense.





hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 05:35 pm
@firefly,
Yes, it was a foregone conclusion that you who champion the police state also sing the praises of snitch culture......

As for Goodman's guys, it is important to try to cover the fact that they took him for a ride. Maybe they can even lie to themselves so as to feel better about themselves as they shave in the morning. They are still slime. If they were honorable men they would be honest to us all that Goodman never had a chance. That goes for Firefly too, he was going to be screwed no matter the facts.
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 07:08 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
you who champion the police state also sing the praises of snitch culture......

Only a sociopath would consider drunk driving laws indications of a "police state" and interventions like, "I think you're too drunk to drive," designed to prevent someone from possibly killing themselves or others, as "snitch culture".

Your hypocrisy in insisting that people should have trials, rather than plea deals, but then assailing defense attorneys as "slime" for going to trial, and performing their obligations to clients at trial, is astonishing. Your lack of logic or consistency doesn't seem to dawn on you. And commenting on the performance of attorneys during a trial you never watched, further indicates how shallow and meaningless your comments are. Those defense attorneys did a bang-up job, first rate, given what they had to work with--and I did watch them.
Quote:
Goodman never had a chance...he was going to be screwed no matter the facts.

You missed the point--the whole point. He was screwed because of the facts--the facts were what convicted him. The man drove drunk, and recklessly, and, by doing that, he caused the death of another man, who he failed to aid. And, though they tried mightily, his lawyers couldn't raise sufficient reasonable doubt about that because the facts all pointed to guilt, the state met its burden of proof.

But, Goodman exercised his Constitutional right to a trial, something that Swift might also do, and, if you weren't such a hypocrite, and so inconsistent in your thinking, you'd be forced to admit that you've been advocating that course of action for most defendants.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 08:11 pm
@firefly,
I did not miss the assertion that he was screwed because of the facts, I am claiming that this assertion is a misrepresentation of the truth.

Re trials, I fully advocate forcing this corrupt and unjust state to put on trials. Sunshine is good, it will be only a matter of time before others notice what I notice. The state will penalize with extreme prejudice those individuals who under go this public service, but the cause is worthy of the sacrifice.
 

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