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How can people say that you can't be sure of anything?

 
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 02:13 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
It is ideas, forms, that we doubt when we doubt because it is by forms/ideas that we realize what before is only phenomena...


But phenomena "before" are merely more forms/ideas.

Quote:
Scent is one of those qualities always attached to its cause as in: Smells like a rose, or stinks like crap


Have you never smelled something you couldn't identify?
I worked in a kindergarten once, and one day I caught a whiff of something I thought was hot food cooking, but when I got closer I was able to identify the smell. It was coming from a used diaper that someone was changing off an infant.

It seems to me you think that most of our reality is centered around vision, or that the major part of a human being's awareness is visual awareness. You say, "our ears are not much".
I think that audio impressions make up at least as much of the total awareness as visual impressions. There are many things that are better done by ear. Vision only covers half your surroundings at any time. Hearing covers everywhere, even surfaces we cannot see through.

Quote:
To reply to the op; those who continually question their thoughts and senses are at a distinct disadvantage since they would be better served using their thoughts and senses to observe their environments for signs requiring attention


I believe that it is possible to act on one's own thoughts and sense inputs and still question these things. I agree that it doesn't serve to become mired in reflection, but that does not mean we have to just pick a belief and stick with it. I think that those who do not continually question their beliefs and their perspective on reality are at a disadvantage, because they can become hateful and mired in their doctrine as the world gradually passes beyond it. As always, a middle ground is probably the way to go. We must trust enough to act, but question enough to learn.
I suppose I would have to revert to the earliest use of the word: Pehenomenon to say with certainty, but what I gather from Heidegger and what I have read of others, phenomonon does not raise to the level of form... True forms and ideas are of the physical world, and experience of infinites is always phenomenal...

What I say of eyes is only what Aristotle says of eyes, that sight is the sense we would choose least to live without since we gain so much knowledge of life through our eyes...

Whether we are active, or reactive by nature, we must admit that formal understanding, like formal behavior limits our options... If I live in a society that has nothing better to rely upon than faith in God, then I would not challenge them, as this would endanger me, but I would hedge my bets with some science, and most of all: Alert Attention... People go down with the ships of their societies because they cannot break free, or think free of their social forms... Individualism has been at once the greatest success and most terrible failures since the middle ages... It is drummed into us, and expected, but little found except in the usual locations of art and criminality, what ever the difference between those two may be... My point is, that humanity has survived to the present through cooperation, and that sin, like individualism rise with civilization; but that when civilizations fall they often take all down with them because too few have what it takes to scoot before things get really bad, and so weather the storm of social change...The best attitude to have is one of alertness, and mild anxiety, that learns all, and accepts all, is tolerant and embracing of all that works and is respectful... If you know that history is the story of changing social forms, then you will be prepared for it... The future is achieved by those who can best visualize it, and communicate it to others...
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 10:00 am
I'm sure of one thing: I'm so delighted Xmas 2011 is past. Such a disruptive force.
Grinch is great.
curiousjo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 10:35 am
@JLNobody,
"I'm sure of one thing: I'm so delighted Xmas 2011 is past. Such a disruptive force.
Grinch is great."

You're also sure that Christmas is a disruptive force and that you are delighted. Correct? Smile
curiousjo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 10:46 am
@Fido,
My question was never about whether we could doubt our senses or anything like that. I was simply asking that even if we can't really identify what things are, know if those things are right or wrong or know where if anywhere they come from why is it that we can't be sure they exist? If this is not the case then a great deal of philosophical skeptism has been unclear for me. why do skeptics make out that we can't be sure of anything? We can't even be sure about being unsure or doubting something? How can you doubt doubt itself? Not all skeptics will doubt everything but only those who are truly skeptical about everything.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 02:01 pm
@curiousjo,
Yes, and that Grinch is great!
curiousjo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 02:04 pm
@JLNobody,
Oh yeh that too ha!
0 Replies
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2011 11:58 am
In this case, I argue that axioms are necessarily true beiefs, hence deductive systems.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2011 09:37 am
@Anomie,
Anomie wrote:

In this case, I argue that axioms are necessarily true beiefs, hence deductive systems.
We certainly need axioms, and must of necessity act as if they are true; and every instance where a true conclusion results based upon their use in reasoning lends evidence in support of them, they can never be deduced, and onlypresumed to be true...
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2011 08:53 pm
@Anomie,
My usage holds that empirical experiences may inductively lead to "true" opinions while logical axioms may lead deductively* to "valid" conclusions (first set of criteria is factual the other is logical--they may or may not coincide).
*That must be what Anomie means by necessarily true...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2011 07:21 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

My usage holds that empirical experiences may inductively lead to "true" opinions while logical axioms may lead deductively* to "valid" conclusions (first set of criteria is factual the other is logical--they may or may not coincide).
*That must be what Anomie means by necessarily true...
In physical reality, true conclusions reached by way of deductions based upon axiom tend to validate the axiom which can never be proved...

Opinions; even those supported by emperical experience or reason are opinions because that is what we call beliefs we are in no position to prove...Reason is a chain that can be pulled, but not pushed... We can say that all that is, is rationally, out of necessity, and follow the links of cause and effect leading to a certain result... How far reason can be pushed into a prediction of the future is strictly limited... Its worth is more in suggesting the possible, and in explaining the past... It is like Mark Twain reasoning upon the statistic that every year the Mississipee was growing in length by many miles, that at some point in the future it would have to loop back toward Louisianna just to discharge at the shore... Of course, it was growing because of silt deposited in a delta that made shipping all but impossible until Eyads built a canal to channel river water and its silt futher out to sea, and into deeper water...
Procrustes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:39 am
Have you ever been in a dream where you sure it is real? Row row row your boat gently down the stream...
Procrustes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:40 am
@Procrustes,
I've been drinking so forgive my lack of verbosity...
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 10:19 am
@Fido,
What a fantastic metaphor:
"Reason is a chain that can be pulled but not pushed."
0 Replies
 
 

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