north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:26 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

you are confusing it...its a loop based on memory...what we call observing observation...nothing else...still is reducible to measurement...the measurement of that which is measuring !


but can break this loop , by thinking upon .....
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:27 am
@north,
...you are talking about "volition" and in there in the goals of a system...what a system needs or what a system looks for or "wants"...its pattern searching algorithm towards its goal.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:29 am
@igm,
Fil, I'm not sure I understand you--at all. But could you not be confounding "consciousness" with "thought"? The latter seems to require "measurement" but not necessarily the former.

How broadly are you defining "measurement"?
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:32 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...you are talking about "volition" and in there in the goals of a system...what a system needs or what a system looks for or "wants"...its pattern searching algorithm towards its goal.


perhaps

but what was the driving force behind the measurement ?

your brain and mind
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:33 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Fil, I'm not sure I understand you--at all. But could you not be confounding "consciousness" with "thought"? The latter seems to require "measurement" but not necessarily the former.

How broadly are you defining "measurement"?


the most broadly possible it goes from a particle at a very simple level being affected by forces surrounding it in its field and "recognizing" at a mere functional level the presence of those forces up to human beings who go up one level and measure the very instrument states which are measuring as also the integrate effect of the entire system processes in recollecting data by reprocessing its meaning accordingly with its needs...what is "noise" for me may not be noise for you and the opposite what is meaningful for me might turn out to be noise for your system , who you are...so yes measurement is relative to my overall state of affairs at one point, what I previously called my "momentum"...
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:42 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

you are confusing it...its a loop based on memory...what we call observing observation...nothing else...still is reducible to measurement...the measurement of that which is measuring according to a system "state", a system "present shape" or a system "present momentum" !

You could get a computer to do that but... it's junk without the conscious sentient observer.

Scientists know there is a problem... so why isn't it a problem for you? If you know the answer then publish and be damned. Show science you know the answer. I don't think you do.

I know a catherine-wheel is just a single jet of light but I still see a spiral... can a computer program do that?

You need to have a long think and read about why science is researching consciousness to understand why it can't be explained away as a physical process... science says it must be but don't know how... they are not saying like you are that it's just 'a loop based on memory'.

When memory is recalled if consciousness is not conscious of it then it is useless there is something other than memory and that is the unexplained by science... consciousness.
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:45 am
@igm,
igm wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

you are confusing it...its a loop based on memory...what we call observing observation...nothing else...still is reducible to measurement...the measurement of that which is measuring according to a system "state", a system "present shape" or a system "present momentum" !

You could get a computer to do that but... it's junk without the conscious sentient observer.

Scientists know there is a problem... so why isn't it a problem for you? If you know the answer the publish and be damned. Show science you know the answer. I don't think you do.

I know a catherine-wheel is just a single jet of light but I still see a spiral... can a computer program do that?

You need to have a long think and read about why science is researching consciousness to understand why it can't be explained away as a physical process... science says it must be but don't know how... they are not saying like you are that it's just 'a loop based on memory'.

When memory is recalled if consciousness is not conscious of it then it is useless there is something other than memory and that is the unexplained by science... consciousness.


and its not just about consciousness but also about the sub-conscious
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:51 am
@igm,
physical ??? naaaaah...that is just a word...its beyond physical...physical like in a virtual reality is just what works for you as being solid or physical...
...as for your first comment, did n´t you yet noticed how damn lazy and care free I am ? I will always be "amateur" in its purest sense...in fact the most I forget about context the better I get to get to the bottom of things without cultural paradigmatical interference and excess of information...which often darkens the correct approach to many problems with redundant data...did n´t you ever felt that silence is more enlightening then reading tons of info ?...my best ideas come out of the blue, of being like in a reset vegetative blank state...I read just enough to get in touch with what "feels" essential...
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:52 am
@igm,
... also in your world-view... you have the problem that you can't have a programmer without a program or a program without a programmer. How do you solve that?

Also see my previous post above.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:55 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Yes, but you are ignoring the consciousness problem... you need to incorporate it or refute it... IMHO.

...(update) That means getting someone else to understand your refutation if you have one and to agree with you... the better qualified they are the better.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:56 am
@igm,
...oh yes, that one...no programmer in my view...just the "matrix" the base program who programs the programmers...reduce that question to another...why something rather then nothing ? Because the experience is here...now !
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 09:57 am
@igm,
...give me your definition of consciousness how do you "compute" consciousness ? be crystal clear please...If I were to go berserk or wild I would reply to you that we are conscious of nothing, we are experiencing machines...we have the sensation of being in control of being aware...but we bottom of all reductionism are the experience itself and not the subject...
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 10:03 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...give me your definition of consciousness how do you "compute" consciousness ? be crystal clear please...

No, you need to show how a system works without consciousness as an integral part... science recognizes that it is something... but not where or how it manifests or how it can be physical... I have shown in my posts more of what consciousness is and why it is necessary than you have shown... that systems do not require it.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 10:05 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...oh yes, that one...no programmer in my view...just the "matrix" the base program who programs the programmers...reduce that question to another...why something rather then nothing ? Because the experience is here...now !

But it (your view) begs for... reductio absurdum or a supernatural prime mover.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 10:07 am
@igm,
(you edited, not the mover...moving as I see it is just an "effect"...the world is standing still like a film, perfection itself ! no outside of it...no nothingness...)

indeed...is there something which is not absurd ??? think about it, honestly...what is it that is not absurd ? damnnnn...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 10:11 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
(above edited for re-equation to previous alterations in the reply)
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 10:12 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

(you edited, not the mover...moving as I see it is just an "effect"...the world is standing still like a film, perfection itself ! no outside of it...no nothingness...)

indeed...is there something which is not absurd ??? think about it, honestly...what is it that is not absurd ? damnnnn...

So now you talk in another way... I'd stick to that... no start... no duration... no cessation... now you're talking Smile
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 10:14 am
@igm,
...don´t you see that most of the problems in this forum are related with levels of linguistic complexity ?
....it all depends on what level of explanation one endorses to commit...
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 10:15 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
We say 'horses for courses'. Smile
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 11:02 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Regarding your "heart and soul" conviction... if you were working in the field (as I used to) I would be looking at your evidence. Since that appears not to be the case, I must assume that your "belief system", like many others, is based on faith rather than experience. Nowhere do I see you counter the point that all computation involves representation, and representation necessarily implies an observer independent ontology. Thus your faith is one of "computational realism" which my field experience indicates is at best arbitrary.

For example, so called "computational pattern recognition" involves a vast amount of computer power to apply "best guess" correlation procedures, yet comes nowhere close to the contextual methods actually employed by human operators. Indeed, the very concept of a child learning language by "repetition" begs the question of how a child produces socially acceptable sounds which are physically very different from the stimulus it was presented with. (On this point hinges Chomsky's demolition of behaviourist views of language acquisition which relied on "repetition")
 

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