57
   

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jul, 2013 03:26 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
I used to love Pubs, Spendius. What is your point?


It is impossible for you to understand I'm afraid and I am not going to give it a try. Read Pope's Essay on Man if you are able. Which I doubt.

Nobody would talk to you for very long in a pub I can assure you. There are enough like you to provide the evidence for that assertion.


Ahhh...you are in the mood to insult. Fine. Have a go at it...but try not to be so fruity.

I have had delightful, long conversations in Pubs, Spendius...I can assure you of that. I start...and continue conversations in bars, pubs, taverns in New York often...just as I do in parks. I can be talkative...and engaging.

You sound like you might have trouble keeping up with conversation...unless it is with other fruits like you...so that may be the reason you think what you think.

You are hilarous, Spendius...and I am sure you do provide amusement for the other pub attendees...laughing at your pretentiousness. I've seen lots like you...and there is plenty of evidence for my assertion.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jul, 2013 03:29 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
Bottom line: I think Jesus did not condemn slavery because the god he worshiped said there was nothing wrong with slavery...that it was moral and acceptable.


That's not the bottom line. The bottom line is what action we take now if what you think has importance. Would it have an effect on house prices for example?

Even half-baked, tin-pot philosophy needs to be directed at real objects to avoid being fatuous. What do we do with the statement you made which I assume you think is true? There is no point in being Abled 2 Know not doing something.

If it is true it cannot but be beneficial to us all to accept it.


So frustrating for you, Spendius...you try so hard to land something...and damn near everything you say fall flat.

Hey...perk up. You do provide much needed laughs.

Belly laughs, at that. Wink
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jul, 2013 05:01 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Never mind all that pile of self reassuring assertions for which none of us have any evidence for and let's concentrate on about the tenth unanswered question recently put to you.

I know you asserted that you did answer all questions but the evidence of just a few pages is that you are telling porkies in the hope that readers here are as thick, stupid, ignorant and egotistical as you are.

What do we do with your information concerning you being superior to Jesus and to God? That is our immediate concern. How to turn your insights to our advantage.

Your reading of the social scene some two thousand years ago, or more, must be of some use to us or of no use to us. Which is it?
auroreII
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jul, 2013 05:54 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Bottom line: I think Jesus did not condemn slavery because the god he worshiped said there was nothing wrong with slavery...that it was moral and acceptable.

You separate God and Jesus. There is a verse in the bible where Jesus makes a statement (don't have the verse verbetum) that if you look at him you are looking at God.
There are those who believe that this statement means that Jesus is stating that he is God. I tend to believe that what he is saying is that the same spirit that is in God is in Jesus. If you could look just at their spirits they would be identical.
Do you think the person who said to love others as you love yourself would think slavery a good and acceptable thing? God does allow things, but I don't think that means they are acceptable.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jul, 2013 06:23 pm
@auroreII,
Quote:
God does allow things, but I don't think that means they are acceptable.


Is this the same god who set the rules of how slavery should be handled?
auroreII
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jul, 2013 08:08 pm
@reasoning logic,
You tell me
0 Replies
 
carlosc2dbz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jul, 2013 08:41 pm
@spendius,
I think that very little of what Jesus said is in the bible. He lived for 30 some years. You know how many books that would take? Maybe he did condemn it, maybe he didn't, maybe the peeps that wrote what he said forgot.

In regards to slavery and minimum wage workers, I was just making an example of lower social economic classes then and now, and how we view them.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jul, 2013 09:37 pm
@auroreII,
auroreII wrote:
.. . Do you think the person who said to love others as you love yourself would think slavery a good and acceptable thing? God does allow things, but I don't think that means they are acceptable.
True, Jesus did not condemn polygamy either
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 03:37 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Never mind all that pile of self reassuring assertions for which none of us have any evidence for and let's concentrate on about the tenth unanswered question recently put to you.

I know you asserted that you did answer all questions but the evidence of just a few pages is that you are telling porkies in the hope that readers here are as thick, stupid, ignorant and egotistical as you are.

What do we do with your information concerning you being superior to Jesus and to God? That is our immediate concern. How to turn your insights to our advantage.

Your reading of the social scene some two thousand years ago, or more, must be of some use to us or of no use to us. Which is it?


First...show me where I said anything of the sort of thing that I enlarged.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 03:39 am
@auroreII,
auroreII wrote:

Bottom line: I think Jesus did not condemn slavery because the god he worshiped said there was nothing wrong with slavery...that it was moral and acceptable.

You separate God and Jesus. There is a verse in the bible where Jesus makes a statement (don't have the verse verbetum) that if you look at him you are looking at God.
There are those who believe that this statement means that Jesus is stating that he is God. I tend to believe that what he is saying is that the same spirit that is in God is in Jesus. If you could look just at their spirits they would be identical.
Do you think the person who said to love others as you love yourself would think slavery a good and acceptable thing? God does allow things, but I don't think that means they are acceptable.



Aurorell...here is what the Bible says that the god said to Moses:

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen." Leviticus 25:44ff
auroreII
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 10:26 am
@Frank Apisa,
King James Lev.25:44-45
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, [shall be] of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. (No longer a part of their old household, but a part of their new household?)

It would seem from this verse you quoted that God did allow the buying of bondmen and bondmaids. Wonder why the heathen or the children of the strangers among the Israelites would be selling their people/children into bondage?
The Israelites are encouraged not to be in bondage (like the heathen and the strangers among them?). Lev.25:47 says an Isrealite might sell himself into bondage because he’s poor. His brethren are encouraged to redeem him if possible. All these verses seem to be encouraging the people not to be in bondage.
We call Jesus our redeemer. Roman’s 8:15



Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 11:26 am
@auroreII,
auroreII wrote:

King James Lev.25:44-45
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, [shall be] of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. (No longer a part of their old household, but a part of their new household?)

It would seem from this verse you quoted that God did allow the buying of bondmen and bondmaids. Wonder why the heathen or the children of the strangers among the Israelites would be selling their people/children into bondage?
The Israelites are encouraged not to be in bondage (like the heathen and the strangers among them?). Lev.25:47 says an Isrealite might sell himself into bondage because he’s poor. His brethren are encouraged to redeem him if possible. All these verses seem to be encouraging the people not to be in bondage.
We call Jesus our redeemer. Roman’s 8:15







Well...he sure didn't do much to "redeem" people who were slaves...or to even speak out against the practice. Or if he did, the people who formed the new religion around him...didn't.

So...why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 02:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I find it amazing the lengths that Christians will go through to clean up the bible.

The Torah seems to be cleaned up it self. It states that if you sleep on a bed of feathers your servant should as well.


I find the below quotes from the bible to be quite disturbing. What would you have to go through to stay with your wife and kids?

Starting at Exodus 21

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. 3"If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him. 4"If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.

"5"But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,'…

6then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.…

7"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.…

8"If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.…

9"If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.

If we behaved like this today would we be considered psychopathic?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 02:12 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

I find it amazing the lengths that Christians will go to clean up the bible.

The Torah seems to be cleaned up it self. It states that if you sleep on a bed of feathers your servant should as well.


I find the below quotes from the bible to be quite disturbing. What would you have to go through to stay with your wife and kids?

Starting at Exodus 21:3

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. 3"If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him. 4"If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.

"If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him. 4"If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. 5"But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,'…

"If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. 5"But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,' 6then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.…

"But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,' 6then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently. 7"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.…

then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently. 7"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. 8"If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.…

"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. 8"If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her. 9"If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.

If we behaved like this today would we be considered psychopathic?



RL...most of the stuff the god of the Bible dictates is the stuff of a psychopath.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 02:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
It does seem that way. Sorry about the confusing post. I went back and cleaned it up a bit.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 03:08 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
First...show me where I said anything of the sort of thing that I enlarged.


I only asked you what use we can find for why we might suppose Jesus never condemned slavery. There is only one I can think of and it is to discredit Jesus, the religion that takes His name and those teachings of that religion which are not covered by the law. To all intents and purposes teachings regarding rumpy-pumpy.

Here is a passage from Mansfield Park which can be enlarged with a little thought, if it is noticed at all, to show that Jane Austen condemned slavery of the North American variety.

There are 3 pages devoted to slavery in E.W.Heaton's book Everyday Life In Old Testament Times.

I can't think how a society might go beyond the hunter-gatherer phase without slavery of some kind.



Quote:
"Oh! don't talk so, don't talk so," cried Fanny, distressed by more
feelings than he was aware of; but seeing that she was distressed, he
had done with the subject, and only added more seriously-"Your uncle is disposed to be pleased with you in every respect; and I
only wish you would talk to him more. You are one of those who are too
silent in the evening circle."

"But I do talk to him more than I used. I am sure I do. Did not you
hear me ask him about the slave-trade last night?"

"I did--and was in hopes the question would be followed up by others.
It would have pleased your uncle to be inquired of farther."

"And I longed to do it--but there was such a dead silence! And while
my cousins were sitting by without speaking a word, or seeming at all
interested in the subject, I did not like--I thought it would appear
as if I wanted to set myself off at their expense, by shewing a
curiosity and pleasure in his information which he must wish his own
daughters to feel."


Every penny spent in Mansfield Park derives from the slave trade. No wonder there was "such a dead silence". The others know.

Methinks that Apisa not only seeks to recommend sexual licence within the law but also appears to set himself off at our expense by being so haughty and self-righteous and claiming the moral high ground by his obvious opposition to slavery.

One might need to study the NT with the same level of concentration required to conclude that the passage from Mansfield Park is a condemnation of slavery in order to be sure that Jesus did not condemn the institution.

The question should be--"Why do you suppose that I believe Jesus never condemned slavery?" The word "never" is an absolute.

There is a lot of information in the background for someone reading Mansfield Park. To begin with--the exchange is superfluous unless it is a very polite way of condemning the slave trade. And Ms Austen wrote nothing superfluous.

"Love thy neighbour" can easily be seen as a polite way of condemning the slavery of that time.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 03:16 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
What would you have to go through to stay with your wife and kids?


Are you sure that the expression "wife and kids" had the same emotional charge in those days as it does in a rich, consumer society in which everybody is "truly wonderful".

I hope you're not enslaved to the wife and kids as are most men who possess such things. As the "your" implies.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 03:20 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
"Love thy neighbour" can easily be seen as a polite way of condemning the slavery of that time.


OK then make up your mind. Either Jesus came to fulfill Gods law or he did not? or did he pick and choose?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 03:22 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
So...why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?


He probably had other things on his mind, what with being nailed to ******* cross and all that.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2013 03:22 pm
@spendius,
So you do not see it as a psychopath behavior?
 

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