Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

@reasoning logic,

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I would say that it is one sick and twisted way of educating people about moral philosophy. It also has lead to the killing of more people than any other reason that I can think of.

Why do you think this way??? I can tell you with full confidence it was not a sick twisted way at all...It got us all to think of the situation, and how we would react, or respond in a similar one....

Why do you believe, or are so certain everyone is a Psychopath under the skin??? Do you not believe there is more good to men and women then there is bad???

If not, Your the one who kinda has a sick impression of human beings...not many people, if any at all, are more evil or wicked, more, than half of their time...Only Serial killers think this way, not people after the truth, or philosophers....and you should know this...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

SpadeMaster...you are continuing a line of reasoning that is almost beyond comprehension.

You have said that being a slave under certain circumstances would be okay with you—that you could accept being a slave…and now you are suggesting that a boss of today is, in a sense, holding his/her/its employees as slaves.

But the buying, selling, and owning of slaves IS DIFFERENT from employing an individual who is free to continue in employment or to quit—and that has to be obvious to anyone discussing this topic with a reasonably open mind. Your desperation to condone and accept how the Bible tells us your god feels about slavery is causing you to argue in a irrational way—in a way that puts a spotlight on your desperation.

No one here actually thinks you would be okay with slavery, no matter how decently and kindly your owner would treat you. The essential of slavery is ownership…and ownership has the right to buy and sell as an inherent part of it. You would not be okay with your spouse being sold away from you…with your children being sold away from you.

Are you saying that when you were a child, it would have been okay to have your mother or father simply torn from you and sold to someone else across the country? Would you have been okay with a brother or sister being taken away and sold? Would you really have been blasé about any of those things happening?

Of course not. I am sure you would have been as emotionally torn and violated as any of us…as I am feeling why just writing such a terrifying hypothetical scenario. The thought that humans have had to endure such indignities—and the incredibly horrible pain it must have caused—causes any reasonable, sane person to cringe.

Slavery…no matter how kind or gentle any slaver or slave owner is or was…is a disgusting thing. To try to make it seem okay in defense of your god’s point of view…to try to make it seem okay to justify Jesus and Paul not speaking out forcefully against it, is, as I said earlier, almost beyond comprehension.

Shake yourself awake. You are a decent person. Do not defend this disgusting practice for any reason…and certainly do not defend it by suggesting absurdities like “slavery was different back then”…or “we are all slaves today anyway.”

C’mon!

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@Frank Apisa,

If I was a slave and provided for, and taken care of...It would not bother me...For what credit is it to a man if he was on his own, and falling miserably because he could not provide for himself??...

I guarantee the slavery you associate with, is much different than the slavery depicted in the Bible as being acceptable....

Again scripture supports this...

God led his people out of Egypt in Genesis, and Exodus...Saying the slavery the Egyptians do/did is wrong...Same as slavery Civil War era...Slavery to help save another being, and provide for them is different...If it was not then God of the Old testament Would have spoken how wrong it was, and Jesus would have condemned it altogether for you...

If God is as smart as he appears in the Bible, he could clearly see that slavery in Egypt is wrong, and slavery among Israelis if not different would be just as wrong...At least Jesus would have said this...(For I believe) Apparently the slavery depicted in the Bible as Permissible must have been different than what you think it is....

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

To try to make it seem okay in defense of your god’s point of view…to try to make it seem okay to justify Jesus and Paul not speaking out forcefully against it, is, as I said earlier, almost beyond comprehension.

The problem is, that we know very little about what Jesus actually said, and there are vast chunks of his life missing. Some people believe he may have gone to India. In Medieval England, pilgrims visited Glastonbury because it has been claimed that Joseph of Arimithea took Jesus there when he was younger.

Most of the accepted gospels are at best 3rd or 4th hand information, and if you've ever played Chinese whispers you'll know how reliable that is. According to the accepted gospels, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, but that doesn't stop the rabid homophobia expressed by many Bible thumpers.

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The slave seeks only to be free, but he does not hope to acquire the estate of his master

The above is from the Gnostic Gospel according to Phillip, although it doesn't condemn slavery, it recognises the unfairness of the institution, and seems to sympathise with the slave, and understand how important freedom is. I found this by googling Gnostic Gospels slavery, and it was the first thing that came up. There might be others, I'm no religious scholar.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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Why do you think this way???

I think that it is sick because of all of the immoral beliefs that it teaches. Not everything in the bible is immoral but there is allot of things that are.
Do I think that you would engage in all of these immoral acts? No, at least I do not think that you would engage in all of them and some of the ones that you would not engage in you would have some answer to why it was done in the bible but you will not do them today or you will justify it in some way.

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Why do you believe, or are so certain everyone is a Psychopath under the skin??? Do you not believe there is more good to men and women then there is bad???

We all have traits of antisocial behavior and some of us display these behaviors more often and to a more extreme degree than others.

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Do you not believe there is more good to men and women then there is bad???

That may depend on what man or woman you are referring to.

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Only Serial killers think this way,

I am not sure if only serial killers think this way because there are people out there that put profits over people 24/7 and there are people who have been taught that their way of thinking is absolute or they think that their way is absolute when in reality it is not.

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not people after the truth, or philosophers....and you should know this...

This seems to be true but in all honesty how many people out there are challenging their own way of thinking in order to determine what they are believing is truth? Then you have so many obstacle in your way such as confirmation biases and your brains brain's logical ability.

How many people do you know who are studying moral philosophy or any other philosophy to challenge their understandings of truth? Finding the truth is not as important to all people.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Honestly, Your going to challenge my views
on honesty of slavery but are mesmerized by guns???

Sure, Y not??
The 2 concepts are unrelated.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

This seems like it is a little bit of an oxymoron...
or something like that does it not???

It does not; neither as an oxymoron, nor as something like it.

DAVID wrote:

if someone has enuf property, then u r his slave??????

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Is it much different at all??

YES; the 2 concepts are unrelated (as I said b4).

DAVID wrote:

How rich does he need to be, in order to have u as his slave??

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Honestly, Once someone is poor, and someone is rich...Your a slave to the richer class...Meaning they can do things you can't, get away with things you would not, can avoid things you would be thrown to the wolves for...and if you have a job working for them, your their slave!!

That is not slavery. U are re-defining the word.
That has nothing to do with slavery.

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If he has that much wealth,
then he can freely sell u or rent o out???? Yes ?

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

If your Boss, of a multimillion dollar corporation said...Your now going to work here,
and make this much money and take a pay cut...
Is that not exactly what he is doing???

It is not slavery, IF u have the freedom to refuse and to leave.
If u DO, then your decision in the matter is just your choice
about how to operate your freedom of contract; the boss has the same freedom.
That is as it shud be. I will remain with the OLD definitions, not yours (with all respect).

If a slave left his owner,
the latter, or government, woud drag the slave back to his owner.

David

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@izzythepush,

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The slave seeks only to be free, but he does not hope to acquire the estate of his master

That is a very good point thank you for sharing.

I wonder what Spademaster thinks about that.

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@reasoning logic,

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I think that it is sick because of all of the immoral beliefs that it teaches. Not everything in the bible is immoral but there is allot of things that are.
Do I think that you would engage in all of these immoral acts? No, at least I do not think that you would engage in all of them and some of the ones that you would not engage in you would have some answer to why it was done in the bible but you will not do them today or you will justify it in some way.

How does that show I am sick? or the Bible is Wrong? Again, what if the Bible is all a test in the end?....

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We all have traits of antisocial behavior and some of us display these behaviors more often and to a more extreme degree than others.

This did not really answer my question, I agree we all do bad things at times...But do you think humans are more good than bad? More bad than good? or 50/50? You seem to believe humans are more evil than good, so I am asking why you believe this to be???

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That may depend on what man or woman you are referring to.

If that is the case, How do you know there are people out there who are genuinely good, apposed to bad??

If you agree there are, why isn't or cant society, be like that in general apposed to evil or psychopaths as society??

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I am not sure if only serial killers think this way because there are people out there that put profits over people 24/7 and there are people who have been taught that their way of thinking is absolute or they think that their way is absolute when in reality it is not

That does not make them a psychopath!!....It means they are not open-minded, maybe a bad thing, indeed, but in no way on the same level as someone who is actually fucked up in the head like a psychopath...

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This seems to be true but in all honesty how many people out there are challenging their own way of thinking in order to determine what they are believing is truth? Then you have so many obstacle in your way such as confirmation biases and your brains brain's logical ability.

That is why were here, not because were psychopaths who are convinced were right, but because were looking for truths, and answers, and offer our perspectives....

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How many people do you know who are studying moral philosophy or any other philosophy to challenge their understandings of truth? Finding the truth is not as important to all people.

It is to me, and I try to do that...I don't believe I have agenda's and I don't believe I am a psychopath...and because you disagree with me, and so does Chights, I do not believe your Psychopaths with hidden agenda's not looking for truth...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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If I was a slave and provided for, and taken care of...It would not bother me...For what credit is it to a man if he was on his own, and falling miserably because he could not provide for himself??...

Okay…you are a stronger person than I. You could take being ripped from your family…or have your family be ripped from you. You would stoically endure having your spouse sold away from you; your children, brothers, sisters, mother and father sold away from you--as long as you were "provided for and taken care of."

Amazing that you have that kind of strength.

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I guarantee the slavery you associate with, is much different than the slavery depicted in the Bible as being acceptable....

Well, no matter what…or how different…the god of the Bible specifically says that slaves can be bought and sold…so the kind of thing I spoke of up above still stands.

Amazing that you have that kind of strength.

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Again scripture supports this...

God led his people out of Egypt in Genesis, and Exodus...Saying the slavery the Egyptians do/did is wrong...Same as slavery Civil War era...Slavery to help save another being, and provide for them is different...If it was not then God of the Old testament Would have spoken how wrong it was, and Jesus would have condemned it altogether for you...

But the quote from the Bible has your god saying that slaves could be bought and sold, so the scenario I mentioned up above still stands. Not sure why you and St. Paul and Jesus feel that is okay, but I accept that it is okay with you.

Amazing that you have that kind of strength.

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If God is as smart as he appears in the Bible…

Of course the god is as smart as he appears in the Bible…although I suspect you see that in a different light than I do. George Bush was as smart in the Oval Office as he appeared, if you get my drift.

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…he could clearly see that slavery in Egypt is wrong, and slavery among Israelis if not different would be just as wrong...At least Jesus would have said this...(For I believe) Apparently the slavery depicted in the Bible as Permissible must have been different than what you think it is....

But the essentials of it were no different…and we have the word of the god of the Bible on that. The god specifically says that slaves could be bought and sold, so the scenario I described up above stands.

Maybe it is not strength at all, SpadeMaster…maybe it is stubbornness. Is that possible? Is it that you are just being stubborn here, rather than showing strength?

Would you really be okay with your children being sold away from you "just as long as you were being provided for and taken care of?" Would you really be okay with your parents being sold away from you "just as long as you were being provided for and taken care of?" ? Would you really be okay with your spouse or your brothers and sisters being sold away from you "just as long as you were being provided for and taken care of?" ?

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@reasoning logic,

You guys can call me Ryan if you would like too...You do not have to call me Spades....

It all depends on what you mean by free.... As a slave to the upper class I do not look for freedom from their hold over me...(it won't ever happen) I look for freedom, as in the ability, to be able to think and be myself, If I was a slave, and could do this...I would have the freedom I needed...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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How does that show I am sick? or the Bible is Wrong? Again, what if the Bible is all a test in the end?....

I did not say you were sick but you do seems to be a lost sheep when it comes to some of the truths in the bible.

I do not think that it requires a philosophy major to see that the bible is not absolute truth but rather someone who is intellectual honest with him/her self and some time to sort threw the bullshit.

If the bible is a test in the end I wonder if hell may be a better place because I am not sure that I could handle another test and certainly we do not know how many more test might come after this one.

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That does not make them a psychopath!!....It means they are not open-minded, maybe a bad thing, indeed, but in no way on the same level as someone who is actually fucked up in the head like a psychopath...

I am not sure that psychopathy is as black and white as you may think it is.

Take a couple of minutes and watch at least the beginning of this video and I think you will see what I mean. it would be best that you seen the whole thing so that you could see that the person regrets what he had done.

I think that all of you may find education value of some sort in this video

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@Frank Apisa,

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Okay…you are a stronger person than I. You could take being ripped from your family…or have your family be ripped from you. You would stoically endure having your spouse sold away from you; your children, brothers, sisters, mother and father sold away from you--as long as you were "provided for and taken care of."

Amazing that you have that kind of strength.

As long, as I was taken care of, and provided for...And they were as well...With the context of the Bible...Along my fellow people, or of people who know God, then yes...

And I thank you for the strength...

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Well, no matter what…or how different…the god of the Bible specifically says that slaves can be bought and sold…so the kind of thing I spoke of up above still stands.

Yes, but if God is real, at a time when he produced a miracle every so often to prove it....It would not be hard to see that it would not be such a bad thing....and God would know what is best for me...

Amazing that you have that kind of strength.

Thanks again for the praise....

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But the quote from the Bible has your god saying that slaves could be bought and sold, so the scenario I mentioned up above still stands. Not sure why you and St. Paul and Jesus feel that is okay, but I accept that it is okay with you.

Probably because the buying and selling of slaves were to be able to take care, and provide for people who could not...If that is the case, Why would anyone need to speak out against it??

Amazing that you have that kind of strength.

Thank you!

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Of course the god is as smart as he appears in the Bible…although I suspect you see that in a different light than I do. George Bush was as smart in the Oval Office as he appeared, if you get my drift.

How would God of the Bible be God then?? If he is real, and there is no denying him, then he knows what is best would you not agree? If God is real, than there is reasons why he is God...There is no justification as to how smart George Bush was because he was a president...He was a complete dumb ass person...with which the people of America were dumb enough to vote him in twice....There is no correlation here...Humans are faulted...So therefor, humans will make mistakes or be wrong in what they do...(George Bush) If God is real, His mind is incomprehensible, and he is perfected, they really are not of the same plane....

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Maybe it is not strength at all, SpadeMaster…maybe it is stubbornness. Is that possible? Is it that you are just being stubborn here, rather than showing strength?

I am not being stubborn....If I was sold, or people I know were sold I would be sad, but if I had faith in a God, and believed he is real, and know we would see each other again, I would not doubt what he thought was right and wrong....

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Would you really be okay with your children being sold away from you "just as long as you were being provided for and taken care of?" Would you really be okay with your parents being sold away from you "just as long as you were being provided for and taken care of?" ? Would you really be okay with your spouse or your brothers and sisters being sold away from you "just as long as you were being provided for and taken care of?" ?

If they were taken care of, rather than me seeing them go thru horrendous bullshit that comes with life, Yes I would, be fine with it...

2 Replies

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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Probably because the buying and selling of slaves were to be able to take care, and provide for people who could not...If that is the case, Why would anyone need to speak out against it??

If an animal can find food and stay alive what makes you think that men and woman with the brains they have were not able to find food and shelter themselves and why have you not addressed this quote that Izzy shared with us?

The slave seeks only to be free, but he does not hope to acquire the estate of his master

The above is from the Gnostic Gospel according to Phillip.

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

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I did not say you were sick but you do seems to be a lost sheep when it comes to some of the truths in the bible.

No I am not lost...What I give out in Jesus' name I get back 100 fold...That is specifically why I preach about Love, Patience, Mercy, Acceptance, Forgiveness etc....Because I know that is the way that Jesus would do it himself...and what I wish to reap....The people who preach boldly about condemnations are the ones who may be subjected to that themselves...For they showed no love, mercy, acceptance, forgiveness etc...Show why should they reap it?? and Jesus says, those you have not done for the least of my brothers and sisters you have not done for me...I would rather preach about how easy it is to enter Heaven and be wrong, that preach about how hard it is and be right, for by God's explanations, it means it will be that hard for me to enter as well....

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If the bible is a test in the end I wonder if hell may be a better place because I am not sure that I could handle another test and certainly we do not know how many more test might come after this one.

Naw, Trust me, you don't ever want to go to Hell for any reason whatsoever!!! Please don't ever say that! for you do not know what your asking for when you say these words! If Heaven exists, I am more than sure, you would want to go....

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@reasoning logic,

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why have you not addressed this quote that Izzy shared with us?

The slave seeks only to be free, but he does not hope to acquire the estate of his master

I have, read above...

I will reply it for you...

It all depends on what you mean by free.... As a slave to the upper class I do not look for freedom from their hold over me...(it won't ever happen) I look for freedom, as in the ability, to be able to think and be myself, If I was a slave, and could do this...And have the freedom, to embrace God...I would have the freedom I needed... NO MATTER WHAT CONTROL ANYONE ELSE HAD OVER MY LIFE,AND IN ANY OTHER WAY!!!....

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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It all depends on what you mean by free.... As a slave to the upper class I do not look for freedom from their hold over me...(it won't ever happen)

If this is what you believe and you teach it as if it were absolute truth then as I see it, "you are one of those who stand in the way of moral evolution.
You take away hope from those who strive for change and things do change given enough time, sometimes for the worse and other times for the better.

Slavery as it use to be is not as excepted as it once was in many places around the world and as we speak it seems as though the world is trying to evolve the modern day type of slavery.

1 Reply

I just thought of something that came to me...

Frank, How does Jesus saying Love thy neighbor as thyself not speak out against slavery, that you think of in slavery...(time in Egypt, and Civil War era)???

And this is not a contradiction of what I said I would do, The slavery depicted as permissible is to provide for people who can't provide for themselves...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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Would you really be okay with your children being sold away from you "just as long as you were being provided for and taken care of?" Would you really be okay with your parents being sold away from you "just as long as you were being provided for and taken care of?" ? Would you really be okay with your spouse or your brothers and sisters being sold away from you "just as long as you were being provided for and taken care of?" ?

If they were taken care of, rather than me seeing them go thru horrendous bullshit that comes with life, Yes I would, be fine with it...

SpadeMaster, you now have said that having your mother, father, brothers, sisters, children all taken away from you...would "be fine" with you so long as you are provided for and taken care of. (Actually, you said “It would not bother me”, which I found so unsettling, I could not even use it earlier.)

Now you are saying “it would be fine” with you if all those people were sold into slavery…SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TO GO THRU THE HORRENDOUS BULLSHIT THAT COMES WITH LIFE.

Read what you are writing, SpadeMaster! Listen to your words and the thoughts being expressed.

If you were not trying desperately to rationalize and justify what the Bible claims your god feels about slavery…would you even consider such a line of reasoning? Would you think so little of your family and loved ones to suggest they could be sold into slavery...and it would be fine with you?

The ONLY reason you are stretching this far…is to justify what you suppose MUST BE JUSTIFIED.

It doesn’t!

All you can do is to make a guess about the Bible, SpadeMaster. You can guess it actually is the word of a god (which you seem to be doing, and which requires you to make that justification)…or you can guess it is a book of words written by humans…offering ideas these humans had…and putting the ideas in the mouth of a god they invented for the purpose.

If it really is just a book written by humans offering ideas these humans had…but putting the ideas into the mouth of a god they invented for the purpose…IT ALL MAKES SENSE.

Of course that invented god would say there is nothing wrong with buying, selling, and owning slaves…because the humans…the people writing the book…would think there is nothing wrong with that stuff. Of course that invented god would say people who engage in homosexual activity should be stoned to death, because the people writing the book would think that is the proper thing to do. Of course the invented god would say that the people writing the book were his chosen people, because the people who invented the god would consider themselves special among all the peoples of the Earth.

Watching you struggle with this rationalization that has gotten almost to the point of unreality…is painful, SpadeMaster. Almost as painful as thinking about what it was like to actually be a slave…and seeing family and loved ones torn apart.

For you to minimize the suffering of all the slaves who have lived on this planet in order to do this rationalizing…is sad to witness. You ought really to stop doing it. Any GOD that actually exists would want you to stop doing it...because you dishonor the incredible suffering slaves have had to endure throughout history.

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@reasoning logic,

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If this is what you believe and you teach it as if it were absolute truth then as I see it you are one of those who stand in the way of moral evolution.
You take away hope from those who strive for change and things do change given enough time, sometimes for the worse and other times for the better.

O.k. I will correct myself, It wont ever happen in my life time...and it doesn't bother me the world is like this....

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Slavery as it use to be is not as excepted as it once was in many places around the world and as we speak it seems as though the world is trying to evolve the modern day type of slavery.

Good for them!! it is a good thing there doing...I never said Bosses of companies were right in there ways of doing things...I simply said I have faith, that whatever hand I am dealt is of God, and will be upheld by me....and whatever is wrong, I believe God will right the wrongs....

One more thing you guys are thinking in terms of being pulled away from families etc...as If God is not real...But if your listening to the Bible explain slavery, you have to except with an open mind that God is real, therefor, people will see each other again!!!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Read my last reply, You making all these justifications as though the God is not real, and Your right, and you only have one life....

But if God is real, and people knew this, then they would not feel like they were torn apart, they would feel it was a apart of God's plan, and they know, and expect to see each other again...

Also, I know the words of the Bible are not just mens words...

I have the gift of the Holy Spirit and I know God speaks thru me....

I know that what the men wrote was from a divine being...and I also believe (like it says in Revelations) the whole book is a test, as to whether you love thy neighbor as thyself, and if you Know God above all things, and are prudent in every circumstance....

So therefor, If that is true, all these horrible things mentioned, Stoning homosexuals, owning slaves etc...If Jesus is right, (love thy neighbor as thyself) and it is right in the end of Revelations...It's all a test...No one knows for sure if God was instructing Prophets and Prophetess to scribe the words they did, so that people would be tested as to rights and wrongs...

2 Replies

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

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