57
   

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 07:19 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
I am not sure, A prime purpose of a citation is intellectual honesty and I do not think that you will find intellectual honesty on slavery in the gospels.


You're tickling your own balls with that rl. Why not "won't" instead of "I do not think". Are you training yourself for a career in politics.

It's a handy thing is the present tense. For greaseballs I mean.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 07:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
I think you're right on that.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 07:23 am
@Frank Apisa,
Great response frank, you seem to handle yourself like gentleman and I think that it is the best way to get people to at least consider your position.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 07:24 am
@izzythepush,
Thanks, I will keep that in mind.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 07:33 am
@Frank Apisa,
And what do you think With what I said before with people basically being slaves in the modern day word, in the working place??

Do you believe that middle class people (namely) are slaves to the richer class people??

If you believe they are, Do you think middle class people are treated wrong? or not, and why?

If you don't, then do you sympathize with slavery depicted in the Bible? (in any way)

And one quick note, If you don't care about voting ups and downs, what makes you believe I am losing winning an argument?? just curious...
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 07:39 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The major difference, SpadeMaster, is that the slave is owned…it is a chattel.


But "owned" is merely a legal category and thus useless in discussions about basic principles. The concept varies from place to place and from time to time. Basic principles are timeless.

Such confusions are common because common folk live by them. It might be a better definition of "common" than the material accoutrements that certain strokes of luck allow a person to use as stage props. The "middle class" is as common as muck. And the larger it becomes the commoner it gets.

Intellectually, you can't own anything except yourself.

Possibly Jesus never condemned slavery because he knew that most of the slaves in Rome were a lot better off than his compatriots.

I don't think one could exert much influence by condemning butlers to a bunch of trawler men hauling a ton of cod in with a freezing nor-easterly blowing salt spray at them.

And Jesus did exert a great deal of influence. That's not only a giant fact but it is one we should all be extremely grateful for.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 07:39 am
@reasoning logic,
Why does it amaze you people are realists, but claim to be theists???

Could it not be that the 2 could go hand and hand?? (for some)

P.S. Just because something is not provable does not mean it can't be true...It means I believe it is, you don't believe it is....
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 07:51 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Quote:
Why does it amaze you people are realists, but claim to be theists???

Could it not be that the 2 could go hand and hand?? (for some)


I'm not really amazed it was just a figure of speech or a joke. I see people of all different ideologies that are able to be correct about many things.

I am sure that even the men who flew the planes threw the towers were very intelligent in some areas like engineering and so forth and could be realist about many subjects. You are correct when you said, "just because something is not provable does not mean it can't be true...It means I believe it is, you don't believe it is.
I wonder if those young pilots believed that when they came out the other side of the towers that there were going to be 72 virgins waiting.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:01 am
@reasoning logic,
77... Wink

Not to joke about 9/11

But it was funny to me to correct the ignorance that you were eluding to...
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:13 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
I sometimes wonder if some of the slaves from Africa volunteered on the basis of having heard of the Eldorado across the shining sea and the truly dire state of things where they were. Having to travel "steerage" is a common imposition on those seeking new horizons. Many immigrants have been lost during transportation.

Stories of slaves being rounded up at gunpoint are no doubt true but they might not be the whole picture. Their price represented a fee from the land owners for the process of bringing in labour in order to get the show on the road because they could hardly do it themselves. And the descendents of the slaves could live in peace and prosperity unto all the generations if the show was got on the road.

Frank is, once again, milking the udder of human kindness. It is a method of presenting oneself to the world as a decent chap. It's anachronistic for a New Jersey gentleman of position to be commenting on conditions appertaining in the carefully chosen circumstances he patronisingly refers to.

No doubt there are "servants" at the golf club. Cleaning the grass out of the spikes. Peeling the potatoes. Trimming the fairways and greens so that the ball sits up nicely. Minimum wage types. Coming and going to reduce legal liabilities.

But beware--I sense he is seeking to entrap you into a discussion about his agnosticism. He believes his agnosticism signifies that he is a superior person. And it is very common for common folk to steer conversations towards subjects which have the facility to display such superiority.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:17 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Quote:
And what do you think With what I said before with people basically being slaves in the modern day word, in the working place??


I think the notion is over-reaching on your part. A "slave" in this discussion is someone who can be bought, sold, arbitrarily separated from family, bequeathed...and held in slavery for the entire of his/her life. That does not happen in "the modern work place."

Quote:
Do you believe that middle class people (namely) are slaves to the richer class people??


I do not do "believing." I KNOW middle class people are NOT slaves to richer class people. I am below middle class...I am poor. I am not a slave to anyone.

Quote:
If you believe they are, Do you think middle class people are treated wrong? or not, and why?


Already answered that up above.

Quote:
If you don't, then do you sympathize with slavery depicted in the Bible? (in any way)


What do you mean "sympathize with" it?

I despise it. I understand why it existed...but I despise the notion of one human being owning another human being. I cannot conceive of a GOD that would not despise it also...and I cannot fathom why any decent, reasonable, intelligent human being would actually worship a god who does not despise it.

Quote:
And one quick note, If you don't care about voting ups and downs, what makes you believe I am losing winning an argument?? just curious...


I don't do "believing." Could you point out where I said you were "losing winning" an argument? I'm not sure of the context. I do think you are defending an indefensible position...and I don't need votes to have that opinion. (By the way, I do not know what the up and down votes mean...or how to assess them...and I have no intention of learning. I enjoy listening to what people say...whether they agree with me or disagree. I am not going to vote on these things...and I am not going to pay attention to how others vote about my comments.)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:18 am
@spendius,
Quote:
But "owned" is merely a legal category and thus useless in discussions about basic principles. The concept varies from place to place and from time to time. Basic principles are timeless.

Such confusions are common because common folk live by them. It might be a better definition of "common" than the material accoutrements that certain strokes of luck allow a person to use as stage props. The "middle class" is as common as muck. And the larger it becomes the commoner it gets.

Intellectually, you can't own anything except yourself.

Possibly Jesus never condemned slavery because he knew that most of the slaves in Rome were a lot better off than his compatriots.

I don't think one could exert much influence by condemning butlers to a bunch of trawler men hauling a ton of cod in with a freezing nor-easterly blowing salt spray at them.

And Jesus did exert a great deal of influence. That's not only a giant fact but it is one we should all be extremely grateful for.


Yes.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:22 am
I have reread yours and my positions over a few days now Frank...

And I am not going to revamp my perspectives, nor do I believe you don't have valid points

But it all hits home with which way you associate the word slavery, and that is my position...

Slavery, Civil War era would be condemned by Jesus, Such examples exist in the Old Testament when God the Father led people out of Egypt in Genesis, and Exodus....

Such examples that slavery depicted in the Bible were different are, a man could come into a maid servant to bear children if the wife was unable to bear children, shows he was more about helping, and promoting Good ethics, and preserving seed than about the slavery you think of in terms of beating and whipping, and even owning them as possessions....

Like I said before, How many people today would love a servant so much that they (the wife) would allow a man to have sex with a servant to have children for their family to survive? Without the men of today doing it for sexual gratification and using it as adultery? Not many...
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
This is a question I asked over in Abuzz a couple years back. Thought I'd give it a try over here.

No need for an extensive preliminary discussion of why I ask the question.
In fact, no need to clarify or justify the question any more than simply to ask it.

Why do you suppose Jesus didn't condemned slavery?

Why do you suppose he never spoke out against it?
The issue probably did not arise.

Fortunately, Jesus DID address the folly of going around in an unarmed condition:
He said that if u don't have a sword, u better buy one. Luke 22:36
That can be used to avoid slavery. Yes ?

In my opinion, that now extrapolates to a nice .44 revolver:
http://www.proguns.com/images/used-guns/usedguns247-904/278taurus445.jpg





David
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:30 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
You seem to loose that realist {logical} approach when a conversation that deals ethics proves that the bible was full of ethics violations by today standards.
Right and wrong has not changed only our understanding of it.
I bet that if you were a slave back in the day you would sense something very unjust.
I am sorry to tell you but the God portrayed in the bible is a psychopath of the worst kind.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:31 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I think the notion is over-reaching on your part. A "slave" in this discussion is someone who can be bought, sold, arbitrarily separated from family, bequeathed...and held in slavery for the entire of his/her life. That does not happen in "the modern work place."

See my last response about possessions...

Quote:
I do not do "believing." I KNOW middle class people are NOT slaves to richer class people. I am below middle class...I am poor. I am not a slave to anyone.

I am also poor, and almost very poor... and as a realist, I know for a fact (to me) I am a slave to the rich...and there is not much I can do about it....And it doesn't even bother me really, let them hoard their money, when they die, someone else will be having a splendid time with it!! Wink Wink Very Happy

Quote:
What do you mean "sympathize with" it?

I despise it. I understand why it existed...but I despise the notion of one human being owning another human being. I cannot conceive of a GOD that would not despise it also...and I cannot fathom why any decent, reasonable, intelligent human being would actually worship a god who does not despise it.

Again see my second more recent post about ownership...I think it all has to do with what you personally believe slavery is, and means, I do not think that it really was about possessions...more about what was good for people who probably could not provide for themselves or survive back then....

Quote:
I don't do "believing." Could you point out where I said you were "losing winning" an argument? I'm not sure of the context. I do think you are defending an indefensible position...and I don't need votes to have that opinion. (By the way, I do not know what the up and down votes mean...or how to assess them...and I have no intention of learning. I enjoy listening to what people say...whether they agree with me or disagree. I am not going to vote on these things...and I am not going to pay attention to how others vote about my comments.)

Sorry, maybe I misinterpreted you, I don't understand what you meant by it is a losing Christian Perspective...maybe you can explain what you meant for me to understand better??

XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:35 am
@reasoning logic,
I disagree, and even said, If I was a slave, and was well provided for...It would not bother me at all...and it is not much different than a modern day job to me...

(depending on the Job) (but most middle class jobs?, yes)
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:38 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Quote:
I disagree, and even said, If I was a slave, and was well provided for...It would not bother me at all...and it is not much different than a modern day job to me...


If you came home after work and found that your master sold your 10 year old daughter to a priest would you be OK with that as well?
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank think about it, You said you were poor...and I said I am as well...

I bet in your life time, you have helped out a family member, who has money, and in return they provided for you...(if you haven't you can disregard the rest of my post) (that is how it works for me with my family) I work for them, and they provide for me...they treat me well, and provide food, money, a place to sleep... etc...How is that any different than what the slavery of the Bible is depicted as? Do you believe your family is wrong for doing what they have done, in conjunction to you, and your life??

I think it all lies with the fact you think that slavery of the Bible is the same as slavery that existed here in Civil War era...If you would like, I will say I agree It is wrong, But would you say that if it is different than the slavery you think of...Would you say there is a chance you could be wrong on what you think about the slavery of the Bible is all about???
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2012 08:51 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
If you came home after work and found that your master sold your 10 year old daughter to a priest would you be OK with that as well?


I daresay a large number of people would wish that might have happened with hindsight.
 

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