Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Got a few minutes…gonna answer as much as I can right now.

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There was nothing wrong with taking people as slaves if you were to take care of them, and act righteously toward them...Nothing more than having a modern day butler, or maid...How many people think that that is wrong?? Do you personally??

And you are sure every slave owner back then “took care of them and acted righteously” toward them??? Isn't it possible that there were many slave owners back then who would make Simon Legree look like Santa Claus?

Anyway...if a person employing a modern day maid threw her to the ground and fucked her without her consent…could she charge him with rape?

If one of those slave owners threw one of his slaves to the ground and fucked her without her consent…do you suppose she could have charged him with rape?

If a person employing a modern day butler found himself short of cash…could he sell the butlers wife and children to a friend in another state in order to get cash liquid?

If a person who owned a slave found himself short of cash…could he sell the slaves wife and children to anyone he wanted whenever he wanted?

If you answered those questions honestly, SpadeMaster…do you really think slavery and employment as a maid or butler are THE SAME? That there is nothing wrong with it?

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What the Bible calls slavery would be o.k., if people were to do it, but take care of one another... People do it all the time all over the world, in maids and butlers etc...When we took on the word slavery, and made it what we did in Civil War times, that would be wrong. To any God, and Jesus Christ...

Really! And if the Civil War slave owner was a kind man and treated his slaves decently and didn’t beat them…would you be okay with that slaver?

Jefferson and Washington both reportedly treated their slaves very kindly. I suppose you would treat slaves kindly...and you probably know many people who would. Would you think it okay for you, me, and those others to own slaves today?

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Because the objective at that time, was to preserve the Jewish seed, and make others part of their own people...

That doesn’t make any sense at all. Why is slavery needed to preserve Jewish seed?

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Like I said, It all depends on what your referring to by the word slavery....

Okay…let’s not even use the word. We’ll substitute the words “human beings” for the word slave. Can't get any more vanilla than "human beings."

"Human beings, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such humans beings YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL chattels. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen." Leviticus 25:44ff

That makes the notion okay with you?

Spademaster, you were doing really good. You were standing up to considerable heat…delivered by an expert. You were holding your own.

But now you are trying to argue something that cannot be argued reasonably from the position you are trying to assume.

The essence of slavery was no different back in the days of Jesus than it was during the American slave years. The person was owned…bought and sold. The slave's spouse, children, and other kin were also slaves and could be sold off with absolutely no right of appeal…BACK THEN AS WELL AS DURING THE slave years of America.

If a god would have been offended by the practice during the slave years of America…as you say ANY GOD WOULD BE…that god would have been every bit as offended by the practice back 2000 years.

You should have simply agreed with me on the title topic of this thread…Jesus did not speak out against slavery because he thought there was nothing wrong with it. He had the word of the god he worshiped on that.

Then you should have bailed out…because there are no good responses from the people who think the Bible describes a god.

Thank you for discussing it with me; you have guts and determination; I admire that. Most of us here do. I am more than willing to discuss the matter with you further if you choose, but this is a loser from the Christian’s perspective…and you should save your energy for easier pickings.

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@Lustig Andrei,

Well hooray for you LA . . . you're such paladin of relevance . . .

EDIT: I note you didn't vote down the posts in which Frank, Izzy and i mentioned Game of Thrones. So you considered that relevant to the thread?

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@Frank Apisa,

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That doesn’t make any sense at all. Why is slavery needed to preserve Jewish seed?

I am not sure but could it have something to do with child sex slaves?

And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Could you imagine if Moses was president today? I wonder if we would have more people signing up to join the military.

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@Frank Apisa,

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Certainly slavery was extant in the area in which Jesus lived.

Citation required. Especially considering the "certainly".

What's a slave?

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@spendius,

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What's a slave?

Please tell us Spendius

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@Frank Apisa,

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And you are sure every slave owner back then “took care of them and acted righteously” toward them??? Isn't it possible that there were many slave owners back then who would make Simon Legree look like Santa Claus?

Anyway...if a person employing a modern day maid threw her to the ground and fucked her without her consent…could she charge him with rape?

If one of those slave owners threw one of his slaves to the ground and fucked her without her consent…do you suppose she could have charged him with rape?

If people were not taking care of their slaves, then they were doing it wrong!!!

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If a person employing a modern day butler found himself short of cash…could he sell the butlers wife and children to a friend in another state in order to get cash liquid?

Are people not doing that today with modern jobs??

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If a person who owned a slave found himself short of cash…could he sell the slaves wife and children to anyone he wanted whenever he wanted?

If people are taking care of, then it isn't a big deal to me...It is no different than saying, A boss says, your receiving too much money from me, so you'll be transported to this division of your company, and make this much money, and do this job....

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If you answered those questions honestly, SpadeMaster…do you really think slavery and employment as a maid or butler are THE SAME? That there is nothing wrong with it?

If people are doing it righteously no I don't have a problem...(maids and butlers) If people are contorting it, like above with bosses, or using people as slaves in cheap labor, like in places all over the world, I have a problem with it....

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Really! And if the Civil War slave owner was a kind man and treated his slaves decently and didn’t beat them…would you be okay with that slaver?

I bet this happened, and some slaves did not mind it, and actually looked at the slave owner, as looking out for them, and taking care of them...In which at the time, the African American people, Some of them may not have made it without that....Very few, but yes some...

You would have to ask those people if they were o.k. with it or not, not me...If someone took me as a slave, but gave me place to live, food and wages, It is nothing more, or less to me than a modern day Job, no I would not have a problem with it...If people contorted it, and beat and whipped me, I would have major problems with it...

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Jefferson and Washington both reportedly treated their slaves very kindly. I suppose you would treat slaves kindly...and you probably know many people who would. Would you think it okay for you, me, and those others to own slaves today?

No, No reason to at all...But it does happen....With maids and butlers...And people of high positions at companies basically selling of people for cheaper paying jobs, and cheaper work....

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That doesn’t make any sense at all. Why is slavery needed to preserve Jewish seed?

Because if you believe the Bible is correct, The beating and whipping of people is shown how much God hated it, by lending a hand out of Egypt, In Genesis, and Exodus...The slavery talked about to keep the Jewish seed alive, that allowed men to come into maid servants to have children...Shows a God who was all for protecting his chosen people of the world...Till it sprang to what it is today...Open to both Jew, and gentile...Per, Christ's death...

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Thank you for discussing it with me; you have guts and determination; I admire that. Most of us here do. I am more than willing to discuss the matter with you further if you choose, but this is a loser from the Christian’s perspective…and you should save your energy for easier pickings.

Your welcome, and I thank you for being polite, and talking with me...I do not look at it like a losing position, just trying to enhance people about the differences I perceive...that is all...I am not consumed with the voting ups or downs of these websites, seems there is about 7 or 8 doubters to every one believer, So it doesn't bother or offend me, If it seems I am losing an argument, I do not believe I am, I believe that many of here, are in agreeing with a lot of others, rather, than one being right or wrong...

Have a great day Frank!!

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Jesus was not a Christian…he was a Jew.

Only on his mother's side.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Anyway...if a person employing a modern day maid threw her to the ground and fucked her without her consent…could she charge him with rape?

She could try, but if he's the head of the IMF, he'll get away with it in the long run.

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@reasoning logic,

Nietzsche thought it represented resentment directed at the powerful by the powerless.

Citing examples of certain forms of ill treatment in an emotionally charged way is a non sequitur. Ill treatment exists in families, in jails, in work places, in hazing, in differential sickness and death rates and in war situations. What constitutes ill treatment varies with the times and is a function of the affordability of alternatives.

Many slaves in ancient Rome became rich and powerful. Sex slaves eagerly volunteer.

Where's the citation regarding slavery in the gospels?

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@izzythepush,

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She could try, but if he's the head of the IMF, he'll get away with it in the long run.

What do you mean by that izzy?

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@spendius,

I don't think I'm being that opaque. You commented on the DSK thread quite a lot if I remember rightly. And yes, I know you think DSK is innocent, but I think if he wasn't a rich man it would have gone to trial.

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@izzythepush,

In which case the accused poor man is a slave.

You're saying that the maid's evidence was only considered unreliable because DSK was rich. I daresay Cyrus Vance would dispute that.

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@spendius,

I'm saying that a rich man can pay for top lawyers and avoid having to go on trial. A poor man can't.

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@izzythepush,

not to interject...but I agree with Izzy...

The world is a rich mans world...plain and simple...I am a realist...

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@spendius,

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Where's the citation regarding slavery in the gospels?

I am not sure, A prime purpose of a citation is intellectual honesty and I do not think that you will find intellectual honesty on slavery in the gospels.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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..I am a realist...

It is amazing that theists can be realist at times. lol

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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Your welcome, and I thank you for being polite, and talking with me...I do not look at it like a losing position, just trying to enhance people about the differences I perceive...that is all...I am not consumed with the voting ups or downs of these websites, seems there is about 7 or 8 doubters to every one believer, So it doesn't bother or offend me, If it seems I am losing an argument, I do not believe I am, I believe that many of here, are in agreeing with a lot of others, rather, than one being right or wrong...

Have a great day Frank!!

SpadeMaster, thank you. Despite the fact that we are light years apart on this issue, I admire your tenacity. Unfortunately, one of the problems with being a “believer” is that at times you have to defend indefensible positions…and that is what you are doing here. And when that happens, “tenacity” becomes desperation—and desperation is less laudable.

There is a world of difference between being a maid or a butler…and being a slave. And it really has very little to do with the kind of work one does…the amount of work…or whether or not one can refuse the work. Slaves and non-slaves all have to deal with those things.

It also has very little to do with whether one is treated kindly or poorly. Both slaves and non-slaves are at times treated reasonably and kindly…and at other times treated miserably.

The major difference, SpadeMaster, is that the slave is owned…it is a chattel. It can be bought, sold, and separated from kin at the will of the owner. The owner is not the slave’s employer—the owner is the SLAVE’S owner; the slave is not the owner’s employee—the slave is the owner’s PROPERTY.

It is that item…one common to slaves now and throughout history…that any god ought to find repellant and objectionable. And the reason Jesus never called it repellant and objectionable, SpadeMaster, is because the god that Jesus worshiped and prayed to…specifically said it was NOT repellant and it was NOT objectionable. If Jesus had said slavery was repellant and objectionable…he would have been directly contradicting the god…something he would do under any circumstances.

That is what is at play with you also! You are refusing to contradict the god…and you are refusing to see that there is something disgusting about slavery that cannot be rationalized away…especially with the kinds of arguments you are forced to rely on. You are rationalizing something disgusting only because you want to justify a position that is unjustifiable. And you are not justifying it because you see it to be justifiable...but because you want to bolster what you see to be A GOD'S position.

When you said up above that you were trying to “enhance people about the differences”…the wording was so unusual, I had to interpret it…and came up with “you were trying to offer an alternative perspective.”

If I am correct, my response would be: You did…and it was strained beyond reason. It quickly stopped being an "alternate perspective" and became unreasonable rationalization and justification in order to side with A GOD.

The “alternate perspective” that ought really be considered is the one I offered to you. I hope you do that--even if just subconsciously,

I want to end on a note of agreement: I also do not pay any attention to the up and down votes…so we are in agreement on that, if almost nothing else.

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@izzythepush,

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Only on his mother's side.

(If I had to make a guess, though: On both sides!)

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

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..I am a realist...

It is amazing that theists can be realist at times. lol

You give serious consideration to an individual who has proclaimed himself as the messiah, and states that the Queen is a shape shifting lizard. I don't think you're in any position to talk about reality.

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@izzythepush,

By the way...I have been told that according to Jewish law...the only way one can truly be considered a Jew...is from "the mother's side."

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Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

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