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Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 08:09 am
Ruach wrote:

Quote:

I appreciated your comments. I consider them to be accurate descriptions of the times. Christ came to set people free, not by force or war but by a change of the heart within. It has taken many generations to make slavery illegal. And yet, even now, there is people in the world who are enslaved by others.


Yes...and if Jesus had spoken out against slavery -- it might have ended much, much sooner. So my question stands. Why do you suppose Jesus did not speak out against it?

Quote:
Contrary to a previous post regarding Paul, as it states, Paul Appealed to Philemon to free Onesimus. Appeal is a strong word here.


C'mon, Ruach -- I realize you have to put the best possible face on things here, but this makes no sense -- and distorts what is happening in the epistle to Philemon.

Paul acknowledges he could order Philemon to free Onesimus -- but doesn't. At no point does Paul even hint that there is anything wrong with slavery -- even though there was a perfect opportunity to do so here. Paul specifically indicates he thinks Philemon has a RIGHT to do with Onesimus as he pleases -- he essentially acknowledges that Onesimus is Philemon's PROPERTY.

Why do you suppose Paul never condemned slavery?


Quote:
The gospel is to cause a change within the heart of a person and so it has after many generations, God has his will done, slavery is illegal.


Looks as though Terry has already handled this. The god of the Bible specifically says it is okay to own slaves -- and never says a word in the other direction. Neither Jesus nor Paul ever says a word of condemnation. Yet you end that thought by saying that God's will has been done with slavery ended.

No way!


Quote:
He proved by taking the Israelites from Egypt that he does not condone slavery.


No it doesn't. The best guess about this is that he does not condone Hebrews being enslaved. And the best guess about that is that it is not a god dealing with that issue, but a bunch of ancient Hebrews putting what they feel into the mouth of a god they invented.


Quote:
He has proven by releasing the western slaves from bondage that he does not condone slavery, but still, mankind continues to have slaves.


Once again -- c'mon!!!

Quote:
Rev 18 is the last book of the Bible, about the end of the age and it appears to take an act of God to completely wipe out the practice of slavery, for it is still spoken of in the end of the age.

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and SLAVES, and souls of men.


If that to mean your god intends to completely wipe out slavery -- you must also mean that your god will completely wipe out all that other stuff.

Fact is, this passage from Revelation actually shows that your god considers slaves to be in a category with beasts and sheep and horses and chariots and other things that are OWNED.

Nice try Ruach, but definitely no cigar.
0 Replies
 
Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2004 04:56 pm
Did Jesus come to turn civilization into war when he came?
The system of the world is set up by man, even at that time.
It is their world order, man set it up.
Even when the south wanted to keep their slaves, they told the north, to take away our slaves would be economic collapse.
As it was , civilization was totally dependant on slavery. Not just for the owner, but the slave also. Where do you suppose all of the people of ancient man could find a way to sustain their life?
Is it right for a slave to be thrown into the street by a command of Christ leaving the slave to starve and die?
You have to try to understand the mind of man and the mind of God and what had to be dealt with regarding the issue of slavery., on a very personal basis. Christ loved the individual and his well being.
If you cannot comprehend these basic realities I feel you are at a loss for understanding.

We do not live in the Kingdom of God. We live in the Kingdom of Man. Imperfect and faulty to the point of destruction.

Paul did not command anyone to do anything. He would admonish and appeal to his students/friends.

Regardless of the laws of man , the thoughts of God will remain the same. God never told people to beat slaves. Jesus taught his apostles, Paul included to appeal to people to treat slaves with justice.
Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

I think that for the safety of slaves it was not able to be fully challenged until the law of mankind actually spoke against slavery. All slaves could have been put on the path of rebellion to their death.
Britain was the first to outlaw slavery and the had the military position to back it up and also in the US, when the law was written outlawing slavery, MLK could not have accomplished what he did without the law of the land to empower him. Just like after the Civil War, slavery was now against the law and the slaves had the power of the government to empower them in their cause.

Quote:
When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. 22 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this. (Deut 24.21)
Quote:
If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today. (Deut 15.15)


Quote:
39 "`If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. 40 He is to be treated as a hired worker or a temporary resident among you; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then he and his children are to be released, and he will go back to his own clan and to the property of his forefathers. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God. (Lev 25.35-43)
The above quotes show the compassion towards the slave/bondsman.

Since we only know today the reality of the southern slave, it is hard to comprehend that slavery was viewed differently as taught to the Hebrew nation, as a sign to other nations.

Quote:
If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. (Deut 15.12f)
0 Replies
 
Defender
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 12:58 am
Re: Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?
Frank Apisa wrote:
This is a question I asked over in Abuzz a couple years back. Thought I'd give it a try over here.

No need for an extensive preliminary discussion of why I ask the question. In fact, no need to clarify or justify the question any more than simply to ask it.

Why do you suppose Jesus didn't condemned slavery?

Why do you suppose he never spoke out against it?
0 Replies
 
Defender
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 01:00 am
Re: Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?
Frank Apisa wrote:
This is a question I asked over in Abuzz a couple years back. Thought I'd give it a try over here.

No need for an extensive preliminary discussion of why I ask the question. In fact, no need to clarify or justify the question any more than simply to ask it.

Why do you suppose Jesus didn't condemned slavery?

Why do you suppose he never spoke out against it?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 07:34 am
Defender wrote:
First - the Apostle John says if everything about Jesus was written down, "...I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written." How many hundreds of thousands of words did He speak that did not make it into this tiny little book?


I would like to think that if Jesus said something about the institution of slavery, it would have been included. Surely, if Jesus said the god of the Bible was wrong in condoning slavery -- it would have been noticed.


Quote:
Moreover, take the words Slave and Servant. These words are sometimes used interchangeably, but more correctly should imply against self will (Slave), and willing (Servant). -Israel's utter malcontent toward Slavery being inherent from the years in Egypt.


We are not talking about "servants" here -- we are talking about slaves -- people who could be bought and sold; whose children and spouses could be sold out from them; who could be treated as chattels and given an an inheritance to a son and kept as slaves forever.



Quote:
But, as for Servants, although a Servant may become so willingly, once bound to this contract they were pretty much regarded as property. God gave Israel explicit laws concerning the handling of Servants, including setting them free after 6 years of service.


This applied only to Hebrews who were in bondage -- not to slaves bought on the open market.


Quote:
Additionally, there would be no reason for Jesus to recap laws God had already given Moses, who in turn had given to the people.



The "law given to Moses" says there is absolutely nothing wrong with slavery -- and allowed for the ownership and for trafficking in slaves. The god of the Bible tells Moses all this is just fine with him.


Quote:


No -- my question has nothing to do with master/servant relationships. It is quite a clear question.

Why didn't Jesus speak out against slavery?

Do you have any opinions on the actual question?
0 Replies
 
Defender
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 09:58 am
Re: Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?
Frank Apisa wrote:
This is a question I asked over in Abuzz a couple years back. Thought I'd give it a try over here.

No need for an extensive preliminary discussion of why I ask the question. In fact, no need to clarify or justify the question any more than simply to ask it.

Why do you suppose Jesus didn't condemned slavery?

Why do you suppose he never spoke out against it?



Because he would be wasting his time and breath. Slavery will be with us until the end of the world. That's why!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 10:49 am
Re: Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?
Defender wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
This is a question I asked over in Abuzz a couple years back. Thought I'd give it a try over here.

No need for an extensive preliminary discussion of why I ask the question. In fact, no need to clarify or justify the question any more than simply to ask it.

Why do you suppose Jesus didn't condemned slavery?

Why do you suppose he never spoke out against it?



Because he would be wasting his time and breath. Slavery will be with us until the end of the world. That's why!


That's weird.

He condemned adultery -- and that will be with us until the end of the world.

He condemned hypocrisy -- and that will be with us until the end of the world.

He condemned dishonesty -- and that will be with us until the end of the world.

He condemned a lack of charity -- and that will be with us until the end of the world.


Do you have any guesses about why he chose to be silent about this particular "thing that will be with us until the end of the world?"
0 Replies
 
Defender
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 11:47 am
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 02:52 pm
Defender wrote:
You ask a question that you're certain can not be answered...


The question most assuredly CAN be answered.

The question is: Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

You can certainly tell me why YOU SUPPOSE Jesus never did.

That doesn't mean I cannot discuss your response with you.

Quite honestly, the last response you gave made no sense -- and I illustrated why it doesn't.

Now you are apparently in a snit because I showed it not to make sense.

I apologize. I thought I was dealing with an intelligent adult.




Quote:
...yet if it is, you have predetermined that you will never accept an answer…….any answer at all.



I "accept" your answer.

Can you not find it in yourself to accept my response -- and perhaps respond to it rather than getting into this pet?



Quote:
This fact can be proved if it's determined you do not understand my answer.


I have no idea of what in hell you are talking about here.


Quote:



Huh?
0 Replies
 
Defender
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 04:03 pm
Proven.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 04:57 pm
Defender wrote:
Proven.



Sounds like someone has decided he/she has bitten off more than he/she can chew.

Hey...smart move.

You have my compliments. :wink:
0 Replies
 
micah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 05:11 pm
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 05:22 pm
micah wrote:
The slavery tolerated by the Scriptures must be understood in its historical context.


You are correct....but it was still barbaric. Why do you suppose Jesus never spoke out against it?


Quote:
It was an alternative to the massacre of enemy populations in wartime and the starvation of the poor during famine. It was to the people of this harsh age that the Bible was first written.


I know -- and you are correct. But you suppose Jesus is God -- so I ask: Why do you suppose he never spoke out against slavery?


Quote:
In New Testament times, slave labor was foundational to the economy of the Roman empire. About a third of the population was comprised of slaves. If the writers of the New Testament had attacked the institution of slavery directly, the gospel would have been identified with a radical political cause at a time when the abolition of slavery was unthinkable.


Once again, you are correct. But I am not asking about the New Testament writers. I am asking about Jesus.

Why do you suppose Jesus did not speak out against slavery?



Quote:
To directly appeal for the freeing of slaves would have been inflammatory and a direct threat to the social order.


But Jesus didn't have to advocate the freeing of slaves. He could simply have mentioned that it is one of the most debasing things one human being can do to another human being.

Why do you suppose he didn't?


Quote:
Consequently, the New Testament acknowledged slavery's existence, instructing both Christian masters and slaves in the way they should behave.


Well actually, they did much, much more than that. St. Paul actually told slaves that even if they could obtain their freedom, they'd be better off as slaves -- and that the reason they were slaves was because GOD wanted them to be slaves.

But that truly has nothing to do with the question, which is: Why do you suppose Jesus never spoke out against slavery?



Quote:
The gospel first had the practical effect of doing away with slavery within the community of the early church. It also carried within it the seeds of the eventual complete abolition of slavery in the Western world.


Gimme a break. It did no such thing. And as late as the mid-1800's in the United States -- men were using the Bible to justify their ownership of slaves.

Slavery has come to an end DESPITE the Bible -- not because of it.

If only Jesus had spoken out against it -- things might have been different.

Why do you suppose he didn't?
0 Replies
 
micah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 05:38 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:

Why do you suppose he didn't?


I may be ignorant of what Jesus' answer would be, but to me the following answers your question:

In New Testament times, slave labor was foundational to the economy of the Roman empire. About a third of the population was comprised of slaves. If the writers of the New Testament (or Jesus) had attacked the institution of slavery directly, the gospel would have been identified with a radical political cause at a time when the abolition of slavery was unthinkable. To directly appeal for the freeing of slaves would have been inflammatory and a direct threat to the social order.


And perhaps because Jesus knew that the gospel would have the practical effect of doing away with slavery because it carried the seeds of the eventual complete abolition of slavery in the western world which may be why he did not openly condemn it however, the gospel did declare the spiritual equality of all people.

That is really the best I can come up with.
0 Replies
 
Defender
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 08:59 pm
Here's your answer Frank. Please don't respond by asking the question again.

Reading all of your comments in this thread, Frank, you've gone two directions:

1) You've asked why doesn't Jesus speak out about how "debasing" slavery is.
ANSWER - Preaching to the choir. These people have holidays celebrating their release from bondage. They know first-hand.

2) You've also asked why couldn't he have said something that would have led to an earlier end to slavery.
ANSWER - He couldn't. That would be interfering with the 'free will' theme inherent since the Garden of Eden. Slavery is a curse created by a man, and it will always be with us.


Again, please don't just restate the question, again. And please don't fly off topic. Debate the answers if you wish.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2004 12:03 am
Defender wrote:
Here's your answer Frank. Please don't respond by asking the question again.


Please don't tell me how to respond.


Quote:
Reading all of your comments in this thread, Frank, you've gone two directions:

1) You've asked why doesn't Jesus speak out about how "debasing" slavery is.
ANSWER - Preaching to the choir. These people have holidays celebrating their release from bondage. They know first-hand.



As you know, Defender, I don't think much of your abilities to reason -- but this is not even up to your usual poor standards.

These "people" may haves a holiday supposedly celebrating their release from bondage -- but they also became slave owners and slave traffickers almost immediately after being released themselves.

There is absolutely no way Jesus would have been "preaching to the choir" by condemning slavery.

Slavery has always been an abominable blight on the planet -- no matter that the slave owning class always considered it appropriate and moral...

...so the question remains:

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?




Quote:
2) You've also asked why couldn't he have said something that would have led to an earlier end to slavery.
ANSWER - He couldn't. That would be interfering with the 'free will' theme inherent since the Garden of Eden. Slavery is a curse created by a man, and it will always be with us.


Well he certainly had no problem denouncing other kinds of conduct. At no point was I suggesting that Jesus interfere with the slavery situation any more than he did with a number of other issues.

But he didn't.

So why do you suppose he didn't condemn slavery?



Quote:
Again, please don't just restate the question, again. And please don't fly off topic. Debate the answers if you wish.


I am not the one "flying off topic", Defender.

The subject of this thread is the question: "Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?" -- and I honestly think I have been right on topic right along.

Really -- don't you think so also?
0 Replies
 
Defender
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2004 10:47 am
He did....I'm sory you're ignorant of this Frank.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2004 10:49 am
Defender wrote:
He did....I'm sory you're ignorant of this Frank.


He didn't -- and if you truly thought he did, why have you been spending so much time explaining why he didn't?

And if you ever answer that question, perhaps you could answer this one more:

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?
0 Replies
 
micah
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2004 12:29 pm
Frank....is your real name George Carlin??



and i still think i answered the question as best as it can be answered....maybe not...
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2004 12:57 pm
micah wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

Why do you suppose he didn't?


I may be ignorant of what Jesus' answer would be, but to me the following answers your question:

In New Testament times, slave labor was foundational to the economy of the Roman empire. About a third of the population was comprised of slaves. If the writers of the New Testament (or Jesus) had attacked the institution of slavery directly, the gospel would have been identified with a radical political cause at a time when the abolition of slavery was unthinkable. To directly appeal for the freeing of slaves would have been inflammatory and a direct threat to the social order.


And perhaps because Jesus knew that the gospel would have the practical effect of doing away with slavery because it carried the seeds of the eventual complete abolition of slavery in the western world which may be why he did not openly condemn it however, the gospel did declare the spiritual equality of all people.

That is really the best I can come up with.


OMG, Micah, you said somthing that made sense!
Did you write that? If so, you are even more puzzling that previously thought. I'm starting to suspect a facade.
0 Replies
 
 

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