Laptoploon wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:Laptop
Walking away from discussions where you are not prevailing -- or threatening (promising) to walk away from them...is a very tough habit to break.
All I'm attempting to do is not being responsible for these things devolving into a row. I take sneering sarcasm as a good indicator that things are going that way. But as it appears not to be the done thing on here to state you have finished with a discussion, in future I will simply stop responding to a thread or a poster.
From my perspective, that is the best way to go.
Quote: As for "not prevailing" you might want to preface that with IMHO
Yep, you are right -- and when you are right -- I will acknowledge that you are right.
I shudda included a qualifier of some kind -- and IMHO works just fine.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Quote:Quote:You've done this twice in just the last few days.
You might want to get that under control while you still can.
Look, you might enjoy pointless circular arguments, petty insults and meaningless hyperbole but it ain't my thing. Anyhoo, rest assured it won't happen again
BTW, isn't this all a tad off topic?
Not in my opinion -- but I tend to enjoy allowing myself -- and anyone with whom I'm having a discussion a lot of leeway in this regard. Some of the best insights I've ever gotten have come as the result of tangental issues that came as the result of "free, random association" or "stream of consciousness" diversions.
Not really sure how to tie this particular diversion into the question of why Jesus never condemned slavery -- but no telling what my mind will come up with in that regard as I sleep tonight.
Hello,
I am new here at Able2know, I already introduced myself on another thread. Before responding to the question, I would like to make an explanation first, I am a traditional "fundi" who believes in the Bible as the literal truth. (although my politics separate me from my some of my fellow fundi's)
I have heard several explanations about the slavery issue in the Bible. One explanation is one I buy into is that the use of the word slave was meant like bondsman. People that work to pay off debts or just for food and shelter and not extra money. However it could be just that slavery in and of itself was not considered to be evil. When they conquered nations rather than killing all of them so that the conquered people would not later rise up and retake their nation they would take them as slaves and then I guess generations of slaves would then form from that. So out of that situation rules were made so that abuse would not happen. I personally like the first explanation better as I have hard time accepting the notion of just going to nations and occupying it, but it was a way of life and still is in many respects. Our good ole USA is about the best modern example of that.
revel wrote:
I have heard several explanations about the slavery issue in the Bible. One explanation is one I buy into is that the use of the word slave was meant like bondsman. People that work to pay off debts or just for food and shelter and not extra money.
And some slavery was of that sort. But the kind of slavery being discussed here is the kind where people are bought and sold and treated as chattels -- to be further bought and sold and passed on as inheritance.
Quote: However it could be just that slavery in and of itself was not considered to be evil.
Of course it wasn't! The god of the Bible told the people that it was perfectly okay.
That is a part of the point of this inquiry.
I am asking why Jesus never condemned slavery. Which appears to be primarily because he saw nothing wrong with it -- because the god he worshipped said there was nothing wrong with it.
That of course, begs the question: Why does the god of the Bible say there is nothing wrong with slavery?
Quote:When they conquered nations rather than killing all of them so that the conquered people would not later rise up and retake their nation they would take them as slaves and then I guess generations of slaves would then form from that. So out of that situation rules were made so that abuse would not happen. I personally like the first explanation better...
I don't blame you.
But neither explanation really explains this problem.
One possible explanation, of course, is that when the Bible speaks of a god -- it is nothing but fiction.
Perhaps the people who wrote the Bible had absolutely no idea of whether or not a GOD even exists -- and knew absolutely nothing about what any GOD that MIGHT exists is like.
What do you think of that possibility?
Hello, it is nice to get a response. I wasn't sure I would.
If we are talking about the kind of slavery where people buy and sell people for the purposes of using people purely as chattels and a commodity rather than as a result of wars, could you give me an example of just such a case of that happening in the Bible?
I truly think what we are talking about is different than the slavery of the African Americans. That situation could be more like the slavery of the Israelites by the Egyptians. Of course I really have no proof of that, nonetheless..it is my feelings on it.
(I haven't quite figured out the quote tool yet)
Re: Slavery
Hi, Rev. You asked for examples from the Bible about "commodity style" slavery that was advocated by "God." Here are a few.
Your buddy,
Ag
Exodus 20:17
Thou shalt not covet thy
neighbour's house, thou
shalt not covet thy
neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy
neighbour's.
Gen.17:12-13 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised
among you, every man child in your generations, he that
is born in the house, or bought with money of any
stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy
house, and he that is bought with thy money, must
needs be circumcised.
Gen.26:12-14 Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same
year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him. And
the man waxed great, and went forward, and grew until
he became very great: For he had possession of flocks,
and possession of herds, and great store of servants.
Hey Agnos,
I am glad to see you here. What do you think of lycos closing?
Not to get into nick picking but in all those verses the word slave was not mentioned so it could have been talking about bondsmen or women.
(I feel weird trying defend slavery)
btw-do you like all these neat little features they have here?
revel wrote:Hey Agnos,
I am glad to see you here. What do you think of lycos closing?
Not to get into nick picking but in all those verses the word slave was not mentioned so it could have been talking about bondsmen or women.
(I feel weird trying defend slavery)
btw-do you like all these neat little features they have here?
Lycos closing? They still have ragingbull
revel wrote:Hello, it is nice to get a response. I wasn't sure I would.
If we are talking about the kind of slavery where people buy and sell people for the purposes of using people purely as chattels and a commodity rather than as a result of wars, could you give me an example of just such a case of that happening in the Bible?
I truly think what we are talking about is different than the slavery of the African Americans. That situation could be more like the slavery of the Israelites by the Egyptians. Of course I really have no proof of that, nonetheless..it is my feelings on it.
(I haven't quite figured out the quote tool yet)
Fair enough request here -- which I will translate to be asking: Tell me EXACTLY what kind of slavery you are referencing here.
And I will, if I may, bring the words of the god of the Bible into play here:
At Leviticus 25:44ff, the god of the Bible tells Moses:
"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."
So we have this set out very, VERY plainly by no less than the god of the Bible.
The god of the Bible specifically says that slaves, both male and female may be possess -- that they can be BOUGHT -- that they can be considered chattels -- that they can be property to be passed on as an inheritance -- and that they can be kept in slavery perpetually.
I hope this was what you were looking for, Revel.
Frank Aspisa
Actually the KJV of the Bible is worded differently. I am not sure which you are quoting from but the following is what King James says:
Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.
In any case in the end the result is the same whether the word is bondsmen or slavery in the Old Testament and I concede the point.
I am not sure why Jesus didn't condemn it, I guess because it is not evil to own slaves, just evil to abuse them. I realize that it offends our sensibilities because we are so freedom oriented but I guess in different culturals they have different values.
I realize that I am not doing my case much good, but it is what it is.
It was a good try, Revel...but unfortunately, you have very little to work with.
On several occasions, I mentioned that Jesus probably didn't condemn slavery because he truly didn't think there was anything wrong with it -- and that was because the god he worshipped told people there is nothing wrong with slavery.
That is my best guess.
My other guess is that IF THERE IS A GOD -- that GOD never said that slavery is okay. My guess is that IF THERE IS A GOD the god of the Bible is not GOD.
My guess is that what the Bible has to say about GOD is pure fiction.
Frank Apisa
I take it that you believe in a different religious book or a different religion other than Christian or maybe Christian but not traditional christianity and the Bible. The fact you said the God of the Bible leaves me to conclude that you believe in a God.
I get the feeling I am not in lycos anymore.
revel wrote:Frank Apisa
I take it that you believe in a different religious book or a different religion other than Christian or maybe Christian but not traditional christianity and the Bible. The fact you said the God of the Bible leaves me to conclude that you believe in a God.
I get the feeling I am not in lycos anymore.
Don't read anything in to any of those things, Revel.
I'm not much into "beliefs" -- especially religious "beliefs."
I'm an agnostic.
I do not know if there is a God.
I also do not know if there are no gods.
I don't see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a reasonable guess in either direction.
revel, welcome.
I appreciated your comments. I consider them to be accurate descriptions of the times. Christ came to set people free, not by force or war but by a change of the heart within. It has taken many generations to make slavery illegal. And yet, even now, there is people in the world who are enslaved by others.
Contrary to a previous post regarding Paul, as it states, Paul Appealed to Philemon to free Onesimus. Appeal is a strong word here.
This is a scripture a little off topic but I am posting it to show the mind of God in some cases.
"6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the HARDNESS of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: -matt 19"
This shows how the complete hardness and stubborness of mankind is. God allowed Moses to write a divorce decree but as it states it did not change the mind of God, that what he condmens stays condemned.
The gospel is to cause a change within the heart of a person and so it has after many generations, God has his will done, slavery is illegal. He proved by taking the Israelites from Egypt that he does not condone slavery. He has proven by releasing the western slaves from bondage that he does not condone slavery, but still, mankind continues to have slaves.
Rev 18 is the last book of the Bible, about the end of the age and it appears to take an act of God to completely wipe out the practice of slavery, for it is still spoken of in the end of the age.
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and SLAVES, and souls of men.
Ruach, the Bible was used to justify slavery in the US and served to prolong it, not eliminate it.
What makes you think that God wants slavery to be illegal when the Bible specifically says that it is legal?
If God had really wanted to change people's hearts and minds regarding slavery, he should have condemned it, not said that it was OK to own slaves and beat them as long as they didn't die right away.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that God ordered people to be stoned to death for adultery and picking up sticks on the Sabbath, but allowed Jesus to contravene his Law?
"
Quote:Don't read anything in to any of those things, Revel. "
OK, I sort of thught that when I wrote that I was presuming.
I think I may have gotten that quote thing figured out.
Quote:Just out of curiosity, why do you think that God ordered people to be stoned to death for adultery and picking up sticks on the Sabbath, but allowed Jesus to contravene his Law?
Actually Jesus explained your very question to the people who questioned the same thing you did. He reminded them about when David was hungry he went to the temple and ate food he wasn't supposed to and then he asked them what one of them wouldn't go after a sheep if one got away even though it was the sabbath and how was that different than healing on the sabbath.
Ruach
Quote:revel, welcome.
I appreciated your comments. I consider them to be accurate descriptions of the times. Christ came to set people free, not by force or war but by a change of the heart within. It has taken many generations to make slavery illegal. And yet, even now, there is people in the world who are enslaved by others.
Thank you for the welcome and the comments.
this question is pretty interesting
Im going to have to agree with Setanta because it seems like the issue wasnt that big
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