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The US Military In Germany

 
 
Reply Mon 19 Jan, 2004 10:32 am
Today's Time Magazine publishes an article, related to a subject, discussed now since some weeks:
Quote:

January 19, 2004 | Vol. 163 No. 3
Europe
All Ready On The Eastern Front
Will the U.S. military shift from Old Europe to New? The Pentagon ponders bases beyond the Iron Curtain
By ANDREW PURVIS

For 60 years, since the U.S. first Army marched into Nazi Germany in 1944, America's military footprint in Europe has been in the West. Today, more than 117,000 U.S. troops remain ?- the largest noncombat U.S. military presence abroad. But times have changed since Soviet tanks loomed on the eastern side of northern Germany's Fulda Gap. Thirteen years after the end of the cold war, American troops are once again on the move. Thousands of troops based in Germany, Britain and other parts of Western Europe will likely be redeployed over the next few years back to the U.S. Meanwhile, new bases will open up in the former Warsaw Pact countries of Eastern Europe. Some G.I.s may even find themselves in Soviet-era bases that they once defended against. "We're not expecting the Soviet Union to launch a major tank war across the north German plain," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said while visiting Iraq last September. "So we need to adjust our footprint."

Just how that footprint will change has yet to be decided, Pentagon officials say. They denied reports last week that up to 40,000 soldiers and support staff with the First Armored Division and First Infantry Division, both based in Germany, would be pulled stateside by 2006, but acknowledged that at least some elements of those divisions are likely to go home at some point. Other units might go farther east. Rumsfeld's Under Secretary for policy, Douglas Feith, last month led a delegation with his State Department colleague, Under Secretary of State for political affairs Marc Grossman, across Europe and into Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, Turkey and other countries. Officials there have proposed a list of bases that could be used by the Americans. More such visits are expected early this year. Given the economic bounty that an American base represents, talk of a redeployment sent shudders through parts of the "old" Europe and thrills through the "new" Europe in the east.

But those fears and hopes may prove exaggerated. The changes, Pentagon officials say, will begin happening over the next two years and likely will shift heavy armored forces out of Germany. Many Western bases will stay open; others will be consolidated with nato or local forces. In the east, the U.S. is looking to establish less permanent facilities that can be geared up or down depending on requirements ?- which may not prove the economic windfall that politicians there are anticipating. "Things will be happening in 2004," Feith told Time. "Expectations that people are going to see extremely large decisions, extremely quickly, are probably overblown. There aren't going to be any new Ramsteins in Eastern Europe," a reference to the huge airbase in Germany. Large decisions may not be imminent, but they are coming. Rumsfeld, Feith and others continue to argue for faster, leaner, more agile American forces whose purpose, as Feith told reporters in Europe last month, "is to project power into theaters that may be distant from where they are based." That will require a variety of changes on the ground. Of some 500 U.S. military installations in Europe, for example, some 20% are not "terribly useful" and may be shut down, America's top commander in Europe, General James Jones, told reporters last year. Some troops may be redeployed to the U.S., where pressure to keep bases open on home soil is mounting in an election year. Others, particularly those associated with airbases, will be left in place. German officials meeting with their U.S. counterparts were relieved last month to learn that the Ramstein base in the town of Kaiserslautern ("K-Town" to G.I.s), the largest U.S. military community outside the U.S., will remain open. Ditto, probably, for bases at Spangdahlem and at Morón, Spain.

Meanwhile, new troops will be deployed in so-called Forward Operating Bases, or fobs, in Eastern Europe. That move, says Grossman, is partly being carried out because nato is welcoming new members in the east. "You need to think about this as pushing capabilities forward, not shrinking or getting bigger," he told Time. Eastern European bases will also be cheaper to operate, put troops closer to current theaters of war and allow them more room to maneuver, say analysts. The Poles, for example, are offering 12,000 hectares of firing ground about 50 km from the German border that includes a specialized urban-warfare training facility complete with underground passages, a railway station and a bank. The Romanian port of Constanta on the Black Sea, already in use for Iraq, provides sea access to Central Asia and points east.

Feith and other Pentagon officials stress that the aim is not just to move east but to change the nature of U.S. deployments. "We want to do things in a highly expeditionary way: land a battalion, train for a couple of months with a host nation, leave and then come back six months later," said Jones. "We want a family of bases that can go from cold to warm to hot."

Whatever the call, Eastern Europe is ready: Bulgaria's fractious parliament last month approved a proposal in principle to station U.S. troops on its soil. For poor countries only recently emerged from communist rule, the prospect of closer ties with Washington is a powerful enticement: "I have been waiting for the Americans since I was a child," says retired engineer Corneliu Ribu, 74, who lives in Bucharest. "I thought that they would never come."

In Germany, rumors that U.S. troops may be leaving in large numbers sent shock waves through some regions. The Rhineland-Palatinate, home to Ramstein air base, organized a committee to convince the Pentagon that staying was cost-effective. "The U.S. forces bring around j1.4 billion a year into our community," said Peter Grüssner, the state's point man on troop issues. "If they were to leave on short notice, it would be a catastrophe." Hearing last month from Pentagon officials that Ramstein would stay open was a huge relief, he said. Others had more sentimental reasons for wanting the soldiers to stay. "The Americans changed us," says Herbert Grimm, 81, a World War II vet who lives in Baumholder, 50 km from Ramstein, where the U.S. has a training base. "They opened up the world to us. They came as strangers but became part of us." Pentagon officials and military analysts have been quick to insist that the changes have nothing to do with the souring of relations between the U.S. and Germany over Iraq. "It's part of a natural progression, as the U.S. rethinks its positioning globally, to lower-cost, more flexible facilities," says Steven Everts, director of the transatlantic program at the Centre for European Reform in London. The footprint may get larger, but it will also be lighter.

With reporting by William Boston/Baumholder, James Graff/Brussels, Tadeusz L. Kucharski/Warsaw, Mihai Radu/Bucharest, Violeta Simeonova/Sofia and Mark Thompson/Washington
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jan, 2004 10:34 am
All this started nearly 60 years back

http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/recht.pl?zeitung=miligovb&jahrgang=1944&ausgabe=01&seite=_c/00010000&ansicht=6&bild=1&navigation=1&wahl=0&filename=.gif

http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/recht.pl?zeitung=miligovb&jahrgang=1944&ausgabe=01&seite=00060001&ansicht=6&bild=1&navigation=1&wahl=0&filename=.gif
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jan, 2004 10:38 am
In my state, especially in my region, at first the Canadians left. Twelve years ago, all Belgian garnisons were closed and two third of the British Rhine Army barracks.

It was admittingly a shock for most locals - but now we can see even some advantages by that, especially in urban planning and town developments.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jan, 2004 09:20 pm
I spent 9 years in Germany at various bases. I had planned to take my kids back and show them around. I hope they stay at least that long.
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princessash185
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jan, 2004 09:28 pm
My uncle is currently stationed at Ansbach, an operation which used to be much bigger but is steadily growing smaller. . . most of that city is built around the business those troops provide, and if the troops leave, Ansbach's going to fall on some hard economic times.

Seeing as how Germany's economy is already not stellar, the loss of the military dollars to the local economies would definitely not help. . .
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jan, 2004 01:09 am
princessash185 wrote:
My uncle is currently stationed at Ansbach, an operation which used to be much bigger but is steadily growing smaller. . . most of that city is built around the business those troops provide, and if the troops leave, Ansbach's going to fall on some hard economic times.
Hmm:
Ansbach has the renotable abbey from 748, the castle is medieval in origin, the town rights are from 12th century ...
0 Replies
 
princessash185
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jan, 2004 06:25 am
oh, Walter, sorry, I meant that metaphorically :-) I know Ansbach is much older than the US Army :-) I just meant that, if you go there today, I'd estimate somewhere between 40 and 70 percent of the Germans who work there are engaged in industries which the soldiers make necessary- even the workers on the base itself are largely German nationals. The malls, the restaurants, and especially the outlying base are all run by Germans for the Americans.

If the army left, the area would be devastated.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jan, 2004 06:31 am
whoops this was an error.

Good thread, Walter.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jan, 2004 06:40 am
princessash185 wrote:
oh, Walter ...



Actually, I do think - and we have the proof here in the British Zone - that it sounds worse than it might develop later on:
- in Lippstadt, where I live, the music school, evening school, distant university, colleges got new rooms/locations; some smart restaurants/discos etc were established in the officer's masses, new houses built on the ground, apartments constructed in the old barracks ...
,
- in Dortmund and Münster, they built (and still build) new industry/offices/apartments/shops there,

- same in all other places.

(Not talking about the loss of work.)
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jan, 2004 11:49 am
Now Walter, you know that nothing else matters bu America! A pox on your so-called "history." Why, John Wayne never made movies about sissy monasteries! Wink
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 03:27 pm
Walter, you seem like a nice enough guy but the view from this side of the Atlantic is that the Germans bear an irrational hate for America. When I see photos of your president as a youth beating up a cop and read the news that a third of Germans believe America attacked itself on Sep 11 and hear high-ranking German politicians compare Bush to Hitler (irony of ironies) with a straight face, I think its time we part company. Germany's economy did fine before WWII without hosting an American army and it will do fine without us. It will build German character to take on all of their own defense. We need to leave Germany behind and move on to our new and better allies in Eastern Europe. We probably have 15 or 20 years before they turn crazy on us like Germany. By then our forward bases will be in Iran.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 02:07 pm
Tantor wrote:
When I see photos of your president as a youth beating up a cop and read the news that a third of Germans believe America attacked itself on Sep 11 and hear high-ranking German politicians compare Bush to Hitler (irony of ironies) with a straight face, I think its time we part company. Tantor


Could you please share the source for this?

a) our president was always called by his nickname "Brother John", because he was and is very religious (and a real pacifist)
[I'm rather sure, you saw the fake photo, which was produced to bash our Foreign Minister Fischer - the paper already got fined for that :wink: ]

b) the only politican, who made a comparison, was the former Minister of Justice: she actually compared Bush's politic to that at the beginning of of Nazi times .... and had to resing afterwards.

The "Statistical Information on the Department of Defense" give a total of 75,000 US soldiers as stationed in Germany - that doesn't seem to be such a great number. (Within ten years, my small home county lossed some thousands of Canadian, Begian and British soldiers - we actually had no real problems to compensate that!)

But really would like to know about
Quote:
photos of your president as a youth beating up a cop
!
However, I would really be very interested
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2004 05:25 pm
OK, Walter,

It looks like you caught me in an error. It was Foreign Minister Fischer in the photo, though I had not read that it was a fake photo.

I think Germany will do better with a reduced US military force there with the bulk of them moved forward to bases in Eastern Europe in countries that are receptive to Americans and are likely to be better allies. It will force Germany to mount its own defense, the cost of which may prove sobering.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2004 08:19 pm
The German "economic miracle" was possible both because of American funds, but more especially in the "cold war" era, because that economy was not burdened by a heavy defense expediture. I have no problem with that, but i do feel it is long past time that we left. So long as relations are sufficiently cordial to make the maintenance of some air bases and hospitals possible, which is to our distinct advantage, i would hope that all other US military commitments in Europe be ended.
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 07:00 pm
The German economic miracle happenned largely because the Germans had the human capital to succeed. American fiscal capital leveraged the German human capital. It's much more expensive and difficult to train a workforce than to build a factory. The Germans had the expensive human skills to succeed. They just needed the comparatively cheap tools to do the job.

This is a point often overlooked by liberals who think the lesson of the Marshall Plan is that any problem can be cured by dumping money on it.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 09:41 pm
You are aware that the "lesson" you quoted as being representative of liberal thought is being actively pursued by the "conservative" administration, are you not?
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 09:56 pm
hobitbob wrote:
You are aware that the "lesson" you quoted as being representative of liberal thought is being actively pursued by the "conservative" administration, are you not?


Pure nonsense.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
 

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