Einstein's theory threatened:CERN scientists discover particle traveling faster than speed of light

This is a good overview of the situation; it's generally pessimistic about whether the results will stand up, but it does include a theoretical "But what if it's right?" section:

http://news.discovery.com/space/reality-check-what-are-those-naughty-neutrinos-really-up-to-110924.html

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html

If the neutrinos travel faster than light speed in a vacuum then it is something serious.

How so and for whom?

If this discovery is confirmed, I'm assuming that no one will contend that these extraordinarly fast moving particles didn't just come into being or that laws of physics which we have relied upon for years just suddenly changed. Of course, someone might very well be contending these things and so my assumption could be in error, but until someone sets me straight though, I'm going to stick with the assumption.

If the discovery is confirmed, and my assumption is correct then the only thing that will have changed is our understanding of the universe, not the universe itself. Unless one argues that changes in our understanding of the universe literally change the Universe the world will not be a very different place, it will be the same place; better understood by us.

Of course I appreciate that you are probably speaking figuratively and that the world will become a very different place to people who make an effort to understand how the universe (and our world within it) operates.

For the overwhelming majority of human beings, the day before the discovery is confirmed will be generally the same as the day after. The moon will not go spinning of into space, time travelling dead relatives will not turn up at family picnics, we will not meet multiple versions of ourselves in the shopping mall, and men will not begin to bite dogs.

The people who spend their lives trying to understand in their minds and explain on big chalkboards how the universe works might tear a few chunks of hair from their heads and tear up hundreds of notebooks, but their brains will not explode, nor will they find themselve transformed into cosmic fetuses.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not minimizing the potential impact of this discovery if it is confirmed, nor have I climbed onto a soapbox to declare that a change in our theoretical understanding of how the Universe works is nothing compared to the question of where a North Korean mother will find food today for her starving child.

I am though wondering if any of you have given thought to what the long term practical implications of this dramatic change in what we know will have on how we live?

I love the juxtaposition of hard science with photo captioning.....

Yeah, I particularly liked "pics or it didn't happen."

You can forget about String and M-Theories even if this doesn’t pan out. No one can say where to go from here if it is true. It is not, by the way. It will not be possible to “tweak” current theory and no current theory that includes tachyons (which is what this particle would be) is a viable model of nature.

Current theory would have to be scrapped. QM is far too structured; it would all fall if this were true. In fact a major foundation point of QM is broken if this turns out. There is an energy related to the vacuum, called...err...the vacuum energy. According to QM, in a perfect vacuum this value is zero. In fact it is the most accurately measured value of zero that exists. We know that the vacuum energy is equal to zero out to about 20 decimal places: 0.00000000000000000000!

Yet if tachyons exist they can (must) then also be created during virtual particle pair production, meaning that the energy of the vacuum is actually infinite, which would be a bit embarrassing as we have taken the trouble to measure it so closely. And pronounced it zero.

In common terms if this is true according to current theory the vacuum should just explode with infinite energy into tachyon particles. It is not doing that so the theory would go away. There are no other theories that work that can explain this particle and those that contain tachyons don’t work. It is too soon to even know what the particle’s basic properties are so even if there was a plausible theory we don’t have the info to plug into it yet.

So if it is true scientists will start observing nature to see what new knowledge has been gained and will begin to theorize and test until they find the next (better) theory.

And thus spake he . . .

The best was:

The bartender says: "We don't serve tachyons in here."



A tachyon walks into a bar.

See there is some of that humour I was talking about even if it's second hand but funny I must say. Oh and I've posted to you on our recent topic.. so I'm not running ... are ... you?

You've described Setanta to a T, Igm.

My this is the first thread in a long time that you had not found some way to attack the US!!!!!!

Einstein claimed information cannot be passed around faster than C. Nonetheless gravity propagates instantaneously to within our ability to measure and, clearly enough, any time you take one step you are sending a (gravitational) message out into the cosmos in real time.

http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/speed_of_gravity.asp

In Einstein view of the universe gravity forces are not communicated by particles faster then light or not but is a distortions of space time instead.

Gravity is the most major area in which Einstein blew it.

That is an interesting stand to take now could you let all if us all know what your background is in that area of human knowledge that would allow you to judge Einstein and can come up with such a statement?

Further to my thoughts regarding faster than light phenomenon: There are 3 things to be considered with earth and light experiments. 1. Medium: Air 2. Earth's curvature. 3. Gravity affects light as well though minimally.

I wonder if the scientists took the distance from maps. If this is the case 730 km is the curved path along the surface of the earth. If the neutrinos followed the same path then it is a problem. If the neutrinos somehow were aimed at the Italian Lab from CERN in a straight path then the length of the path is not an issue. Could the path itself being conditioned affect the result?

If they dashed off an email or text immediately after they got the neutrino time taken v the speed of light then yes but they know their reputations are on the line. I think they’ve got your scenario covered.

You are right if there is an error it likely to be a very subtle error indeed that a large numbers of very bright people had not yet seen.

My concern with the path is that the curved surface of 730 km is like the bow. The straight path is the string. The straight or string path is shorter so it could appear to be faster i.e. a sprinter running 90 meters but registered as 100 meters will appear to be faster in print. 20 parts per million of approximately 186,000 miles per second comes to about 4 or 5 miles/second faster. 20 parts per million of 730 km is .0146 km or 14.6 meters. It meant the neutrinos travelled 14.6 meters less in a straight path if the 730 km distance is from maps and not measured by lasers.

Yeah, 60 ns at speed of light is approximately 69 feet.....