8
   

Can betrayal be justified?

 
 
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 12:48 pm
Under what conditions can betrayal be justified?
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 8 • Views: 7,146 • Replies: 22
No top replies

 
JLNobody
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 03:38 pm
@hamilton,
Do you want to know if betrayal can or cannot be justified, or do you want to know under what conditions betrayal can be justified? Let me take the easy way out: if I were one of Hitler's generals, I would feel morally obliged to betray him in the worst possible way.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 07:57 pm
@hamilton,
I was going to say much the same thing, except I was going to ask 'Do both parties always consider a 'betrayal' a betrayal? I don't think they always do.

Further, many betrayals of party A by party B are prefaced by betrayals of party B or C by party A (that's of course, not necessarily a justification, but a circumstance)
0 Replies
 
Flight33
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2011 04:17 pm
@JLNobody,
Your betrayal of Hitler would depend on your thoughts on him. Maybe you might think as he does. If so you might see yourself as similar to him. This would make your betrayal very difficult. However, if Hitler in your mind was a bad man then your betrayal may be easily justified. Look at it this way. You have two football teams and they both are cheating.Who would justify either one? The answer is usually the side of the field you are on. Right? Normally the crowd would rally for their team. I think it comes down to many variables. the most important variable is how you like or dislike the person cheating. It also depends on how you might benefit from the cheating. Human beings will sell their souls for greatness and perhaps Hitler is making you great at that time. If you dislike him betrayal would be justified. Yes! If you like him then betrayal would not be justified. It is up to the person and their thoughts!
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2011 04:42 pm
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:

Under what conditions can betrayal be justified?

Some would say that one would be fortunate to be able to betray anyone who deliberately harms the defenceless and the vulnerable.
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2011 04:57 pm
@hamilton,
Generally speaking, the justification for betrayal requires answering to a higher ideal.
In the case of Hitler's general, the higher ideal would have been the preservation of Germany.
In an interesting note, American law upholds marriage as the higher ideal in protecting one spouse from testifying against the other.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 10:43 am
Betrayal can be forgiven, most easily by those who stand to gain from it, as it will be condemned by those who stand to suffer from it. Both can forgive betrayal, perhaps even justify it, but it will never be forgotten.

Imagine that you meet a woman. She is already married, but the passion between you makes her betray her husband. Later she divorces him and marries you, and her betrayal is justified in your eyes. But you will always know that she is capable of such betrayal, which can make it harder to trust her. She might say that she'd never be unfaithful to you, but you know already that she is capable of it. The same if you're a woman and meet a man in this way, of course.

It gets trickier in cases such as the one JL mentioned. If you are faithful to a leader and that leader abandons his cause or his moral values, is it betrayal to abandon faith with him, or was he the traitor to the values you held on to, which made you go against him? In such cases justification is often decided by war and victory...
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 10:56 am
@wayne,
Interesting interpretation, Wayne. It's my understanding that spouses not only do not have to testify against their spouses but can't do so. I may be wrong here, but it seems that their restriction regarding testimony reflects the possibility that they would be strongly biased to either condemn or defend their spouse. They are likely to lack a necessary amount of objectivity qua indifference. Just a guess. I'd like Joe's (from Chicago) input here.
0 Replies
 
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 11:18 am
I think the greater good has to be considered.

A beloved grandfather by two generations was revealed to be a molester to children in previous generations. All hell broke loose in the family after he died and it was considered a betrayal to smear his name at that late date (he died at age 98)

I also have been in grief groups with women who have found out their now deceased husband had second relationships (even with kids) or were secretly gay.

Feeling betrayed is the most hurtful, IMHO.

hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 01:51 pm
@PUNKEY,
but what decides what the greater good?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 02:08 pm
@hamilton,
...the "greater good" it is what happens...
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 02:10 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
i disagree. what quantifies the goodness from betrayal? action's are all to different to be compared to each other in any realistic sense.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 02:30 pm
@hamilton,
...at the very least it teaches you to chose better next time ! Wink
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 02:34 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
well, that depends on the outcome. is to save one a third of the goodness of saving three?
it depends on so many factors, that cant be comprehended.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 02:36 pm
@hamilton,
...precisely because you, as a small part, cannot compute the outcome of reality until reality finishes itself and loops you cannot say something is wrong...what is right is right because it happens is the best approach...is a question of power !
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 02:38 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
so right and wrong is relativistic as well, then. it all depends on the majority's view point.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 02:44 pm
@hamilton,
...all view points are justified once they all happen relative to someone...although they are 2 order phenomena...they can be justified (dissolved) by greater degrees of order...their happening has a certain scope and depth beyond which nothing can be said upon them without they loosing their meaning as "things"...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 02:48 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
...to a relative (scope) question, an OPTIMAL (algorithmic) relative (scope) answer !
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 03:01 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
...relative measurement is nonetheless a true phenomena, at least as true as all phenomena can be said to be true...
0 Replies
 
IfUnowhatsgud4u
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2012 03:59 am
@hamilton,
Nope! It can never be justified, even (especially!) by roommates, under any circumstances. Especially since they've never betrayed you!
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
DOES NOTHING EXIST??? - Question by mark noble
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
morals and ethics, how are they different? - Question by existential potential
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Can betrayal be justified?
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 10/15/2019 at 05:39:54