43
   

Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  5  
Tue 7 Dec, 2021 09:48 am
@Frank Apisa,
If I knew God existed I wouldn't bad mouth God and tell lies about God like Bulma does.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Tue 7 Dec, 2021 10:29 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Ad hominems are not about personal failures, they're about presumed or imaginary short comings.

My goodness, your lack of comprehension of the dictionary is as abysmal as your grasp of the Bible. See? That was a criticism, not an ad hominem.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Tue 7 Dec, 2021 10:31 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Agnostics are not on the fence, they are searching or at least open minded to G*D.
Jasper10
 
  -3  
Tue 7 Dec, 2021 10:44 am
@bulmabriefs144,
You at least have a FAITH…HOPE…….bulmabriefs144…..a stance/choice in something.

What do others have?

Just a HOPE, the same as you and a bit of FAITH maybe that there HOPEFUL stance is enough, if required.



Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Tue 7 Dec, 2021 10:59 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

Agnostics are not on the fence, they are searching or at least open minded to G*D.


I certainly am open-minded on the question, Bobsal...and have mentioned it a half-dozen times to this guy. He just does not listen...or is incapable of understanding.

There may be a GOD...there may be no gods. I do not know...and I prefer not to guess which it is.

There is nothing about "I do not know" that is fence sitting.
Jasper10
 
  -3  
Tue 7 Dec, 2021 11:12 am
@Jasper10,
They are in an IDENTICAL mirror imaging position as you bulmabriefs144
0 Replies
 
Jasper10
 
  -3  
Tue 7 Dec, 2021 11:13 am
@Jasper10,
Take no notice…
Jasper10
 
  -3  
Tue 7 Dec, 2021 11:57 am
@Jasper10,
Bulmabriefs144….You are sitting on the fence in HOPE (only because no definitive proof is given) and they are sitting on the FENCE …clearly ….by their own admission…. with NO HOPE (only because no definitive proof is given).Your stance is just as valid as theirs…and they have no right to challenge it …that is just hypocritical….
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Tue 7 Dec, 2021 03:47 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You certainly have struck me for the last twenty or so years as inquiring and open minded - at least willing to listen first.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Wed 8 Dec, 2021 01:54 am
@Jasper10,
Lemme put it this way.

My stance is 100% valid TO ME.

I can't know anything about whether their stance is valid to them or not (though my own experiences tell me it's irrational). I am perfectly okay letting them be though, if they assert their ideals only when I overstep. If they make it clear "I personally can't know."

But usually they overstep into territory of telling me how to think, to feel, to believe. When they call me idiotic for believing my own beliefs, that's one strike. When they tell me that I'm just guessing, that's two strikes. Third strike is trying to talk me out of my faith.

You see, I happen to believe that our faith is a personal possession, as real as a purse or article of clothing. So to violate it is a bit akin to theft. People should keep to their faith (regardless of how irrational I think it is), but particular they should not try to steal the faith of others. It's one thing to tell people what you believe, but it's quite another to make them believe what you do, tell them thet are guessing, or treat them in a demeaning way because they don't share your ideas. Frank went around with the mentality that if he just works on me a little more, maybe I'll "grow up" like him.
First of all, who would want that? Most of what he believes represents a sad chapter in my life. Guess what, I was agnostic. I grew up. I received some very hard, very painful lessons. I learned that alot of people are very shitty, and that if there isn't a God, things are a Hell (literally) of a lot worse.
Second of all, I know exactly why he's doing this. It is human nature to tease those who don't seem happy. But I am happy being unhappy. I am content mostly not having money, succes, or all the crap he thinks is so damned important because I value real friends. Like him, one of my friends does tease me, but unlike him, this friend kinda respects me. I don't feel that coming from Frank, he just treats me like **** and posts laughing GIFs all day. What does it mean to be happy with unhappiness? It is to recognize the absurdity of life, but still do the best for those you care about. Now I don't think I will live much longer, because those I care for everything to me, I've known them all my life, and I can't imagine anyone replacing them. But I will maybe plod along alone for a little while. Life is pointless, but I know there is a God.
Which brings us to the third point, no matter how miserable I am, nobody has the right to trample over the boundaries of others. Period.

So no, it's not hypocritical, in that I was perfectly cool with him saying whatever about him not knowing. When he repeatedly talked about how I was guessing, that's when I told him off. You know your personal truth. So do I. Let's leave it at that.
Jasper10
 
  -2  
Wed 8 Dec, 2021 05:49 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Hi bulmabriefs144.

As no definitive proof is provided one way or the other concerning the big question of God then it can only be about logic output possibilities one way or the other and has only ever been about this….still is…and this is ongoing.

Now anyone can sit on their fence cheer leading to all parties about not guessing one way or the other …that’s easy….anyone can do that…however there is still the issue of output possibilities to contend with.

If one is going to sit on the nihilistic “neither side can guess fence” then ok….but don’t jump off that fence and express an opinion one way or the other and remember keep you mouth shut whilst you are sitting on the fence….a true Nihilist doesn’t have an opinion one way or the other.

Don’t pretend to be a true impartial Nihilist…..when one is just a counterfeit + or - Nearly Nihilist on certain issues.

Be a Nihilist or a Nearly Nihilist…..you can’t be both without being hypocritical

Some people however can’t help themselves and toggle between the Nihilistic view ( Ha Ha …or their opinion of the Nihilistic view) and the biased Nearly Nihilistic view to suit themselves …

Nobody is a true Nihilist by the way…..we all have an opinion about God and either reject him or accept him….that is my understanding/view…..














Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 8 Dec, 2021 07:39 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

You certainly have struck me for the last twenty or so years as inquiring and open minded - at least willing to listen first.


Thank you.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 8 Dec, 2021 07:43 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Lemme put it this way.

My stance is 100% valid TO ME.

I can't know anything about whether their stance is valid to them or not (though my own experiences tell me it's irrational). I am perfectly okay letting them be though, if they assert their ideals only when I overstep. If they make it clear "I personally can't know."

But usually they overstep into territory of telling me how to think, to feel, to believe. When they call me idiotic for believing my own beliefs, that's one strike. When they tell me that I'm just guessing, that's two strikes. Third strike is trying to talk me out of my faith.

You see, I happen to believe that our faith is a personal possession, as real as a purse or article of clothing. So to violate it is a bit akin to theft. People should keep to their faith (regardless of how irrational I think it is), but particular they should not try to steal the faith of others. It's one thing to tell people what you believe, but it's quite another to make them believe what you do, tell them thet are guessing, or treat them in a demeaning way because they don't share your ideas. Frank went around with the mentality that if he just works on me a little more, maybe I'll "grow up" like him.
First of all, who would want that? Most of what he believes represents a sad chapter in my life. Guess what, I was agnostic. I grew up. I received some very hard, very painful lessons. I learned that alot of people are very shitty, and that if there isn't a God, things are a Hell (literally) of a lot worse.
Second of all, I know exactly why he's doing this. It is human nature to tease those who don't seem happy. But I am happy being unhappy. I am content mostly not having money, succes, or all the crap he thinks is so damned important because I value real friends. Like him, one of my friends does tease me, but unlike him, this friend kinda respects me. I don't feel that coming from Frank, he just treats me like **** and posts laughing GIFs all day. What does it mean to be happy with unhappiness? It is to recognize the absurdity of life, but still do the best for those you care about. Now I don't think I will live much longer, because those I care for everything to me, I've known them all my life, and I can't imagine anyone replacing them. But I will maybe plod along alone for a little while. Life is pointless, but I know there is a God.
Which brings us to the third point, no matter how miserable I am, nobody has the right to trample over the boundaries of others. Period.

So no, it's not hypocritical, in that I was perfectly cool with him saying whatever about him not knowing. When he repeatedly talked about how I was guessing, that's when I told him off. You know your personal truth. So do I. Let's leave it at that.


Most people do not tell you what to "believe."

I certainly have never done that.

You simply are not able to be coherent in your arguments on that issue.

And if you are asserting, "There IS a god"...YOU ARE JUST SHARING A BLIND GUESS.

Unless you want to assert the laughable "GOD has given me a personal revelation"...in which case I have to ask, "How do you know you are not deluding yourself?"

You don't.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Wed 8 Dec, 2021 08:07 am
@Jasper10,
Why is the creation itself not definitive proof?

Suppose I were a canoe maker, and made boats by hand. The entire town sold them. Now suppose my wife killed me, and ran off with some other woman. Now suppose for a second, my bitch of a wife was well loved by my leftist Wasington state (the only place I know of besides Jersey that is very rural in places yet still very "out there") logging town, and the entire town conspires to hide my existence, burning any and all records with my name on it.

Now let us suppose for a second that rebirth is real, but the reborn do not have real memories such as vague instincts. And mine is to avenge my murder, but my current mortal body, a young lesbian woman who is private detective, does not even know it happened. (Alternatively, we can dismiss the rebirth part, and just have stranger by that description wander in). How will this young woman correctly deduce a murder.

Well, it turns out there are three proofs.
1. Love.
I will of course be drawn to my old flame, and have a series of passionate sexual encounters, taking her away from her current girl. Doing so will reveal that while a sizable number of people in town are acting suspicious (it is after all, a town with a secret), this girl while being irresistible to my current form will nonetheless strike me as most suspicious of all. Because I love her, naturally I will want to get to know her more than other people, so I will investigate her. I will not find out any death records, but...
2. The absence of evidence, or is it the evidence of absence?
You see, not having evidence does not ever proof that something didn't exist. In fact, sometimes it leaves person-sized holes. I will notice for example that her ring finger has a tan line, and slight impression where it used to be. Likewise, there might be certain restaurants where this other me shopped that have a different feel to them than the places who weren't even aware the man existed. At city hall, only the officials that expunged his records wouldhave any connection, but at his favorite shops and restaurants certain people would be very nervous. There might even be one chair removed from a certain table in a restaurant to prevent people sitting there. At his old schools, they might even wipe out his student ID but there might still be contributions to this alma mater, which make this school slightly richer than can be accounted for. Supposing an accountant lives outside town, they also investigate these discrepancies.
3. Creation.
Wherever I go in this town, I will see canoes sold. Yet there will be something off when I ask people about them. They will dodge the question. In fact, everyone will, short of young children. It's been five months, so I might be able get a young child to blab with a bribe, but let's say all of them have been well-spoiled. Using the canoe, I will be able to find an abandoned canoe shop. It will likely be in disrepair, but that I will be able to determine that this was the person who made the canoes. I will become curious and launch a full investigation, starting with my women, who I will make mad mad love to in order to interrogate, and after thw body is eventually found, continue to make visits regularly in prison. In other words, even lacking birth records, school records, work records, and even dental records, the mere fact that something has been created but nobody in town will admit by whom will be enough to prove there was a canoe maker.

So also it is with a world where nobody admits there is clear proof of God. There are nonetheless people who can see the created world as proof positive for God, if not the "body" of God. If God is dead, then we have found his body (creation), but if the Lord lives, we recognize him as a missing persons (Jesus). Either way, yes there is proof enough for God.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 8 Dec, 2021 10:51 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Why is the creation itself not definitive proof?

Suppose I were a canoe maker, and made boats by hand. The entire town sold them. Now suppose my wife killed me, and ran off with some other woman. Now suppose for a second, my bitch of a wife was well loved by my leftist Wasington state (the only place I know of besides Jersey that is very rural in places yet still very "out there") logging town, and the entire town conspires to hide my existence, burning any and all records with my name on it.

Now let us suppose for a second that rebirth is real, but the reborn do not have real memories such as vague instincts. And mine is to avenge my murder, but my current mortal body, a young lesbian woman who is private detective, does not even know it happened. (Alternatively, we can dismiss the rebirth part, and just have stranger by that description wander in). How will this young woman correctly deduce a murder.

Well, it turns out there are three proofs.
1. Love.
I will of course be drawn to my old flame, and have a series of passionate sexual encounters, taking her away from her current girl. Doing so will reveal that while a sizable number of people in town are acting suspicious (it is after all, a town with a secret), this girl while being irresistible to my current form will nonetheless strike me as most suspicious of all. Because I love her, naturally I will want to get to know her more than other people, so I will investigate her. I will not find out any death records, but...
2. The absence of evidence, or is it the evidence of absence?
You see, not having evidence does not ever proof that something didn't exist. In fact, sometimes it leaves person-sized holes. I will notice for example that her ring finger has a tan line, and slight impression where it used to be. Likewise, there might be certain restaurants where this other me shopped that have a different feel to them than the places who weren't even aware the man existed. At city hall, only the officials that expunged his records wouldhave any connection, but at his favorite shops and restaurants certain people would be very nervous. There might even be one chair removed from a certain table in a restaurant to prevent people sitting there. At his old schools, they might even wipe out his student ID but there might still be contributions to this alma mater, which make this school slightly richer than can be accounted for. Supposing an accountant lives outside town, they also investigate these discrepancies.
3. Creation.
Wherever I go in this town, I will see canoes sold. Yet there will be something off when I ask people about them. They will dodge the question. In fact, everyone will, short of young children. It's been five months, so I might be able get a young child to blab with a bribe, but let's say all of them have been well-spoiled. Using the canoe, I will be able to find an abandoned canoe shop. It will likely be in disrepair, but that I will be able to determine that this was the person who made the canoes. I will become curious and launch a full investigation, starting with my women, who I will make mad mad love to in order to interrogate, and after thw body is eventually found, continue to make visits regularly in prison. In other words, even lacking birth records, school records, work records, and even dental records, the mere fact that something has been created but nobody in town will admit by whom will be enough to prove there was a canoe maker.

So also it is with a world where nobody admits there is clear proof of God. There are nonetheless people who can see the created world as proof positive for God, if not the "body" of God. If God is dead, then we have found his body (creation), but if the Lord lives, we recognize him as a missing persons (Jesus). Either way, yes there is proof enough for God.



There is absolutely no "PROOF ENOUGH" for that character you refer to as God.

Fact is, there is no "proof enough" that there are ANY gods...just as there is no "proof enough" that there are no gods.

You base your sophomoric argument on conjecture, Bulma, the conjecture that the only explanation for existence...is the pre-existence of a god. Pure conjecture...or put another way, a blind guess.

Just as one cannot reasonably (logically) discount a god that always existed without a creator (as you guess)...one cannot reasonably (logically) discount "existence" as always having been without a pre-existing god.

You are a blind guesser gone ape-****, Bulma. You can do better.
0 Replies
 
Jasper10
 
  -1  
Wed 8 Dec, 2021 01:21 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
For me…..if I’m honest…..I find it more difficult to not believe that God exists than to believe that he does exist….That is where I am at.

So yes my personal view is that one doesn’t need definitive proof to believe something or someone exists…

It isn’t just about believing that he exists though is my personal opinion from what I have learnt anyway….and the Christian bible certainly agrees with me on that point.

bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Sat 18 Dec, 2021 09:59 pm
@Jasper10,
This is basically why the initial topic doesn't work.

It doesn't appear that God cares about dogma.

But there is a sort of compartment in the human brain for a sort of belief/relationship thing. We aren't really able to be nonbelievers. Case in point, North Korea. They are supposed to be atheist, but it instead became a sort of leader cult. When we humans try to empty out religion, what replaces it is false religion. Either a belief in leaders, in "science", in luck, or even if superstition.
Jasper10
 
  -1  
Sun 19 Dec, 2021 02:14 am
@bulmabriefs144,
I would say it all comes back to the 4 off logic output possibility combinations again…..your Boolean logic principles I suppose ……Boolean logic adopts all logic output possibility combinations and not just half….perhaps man needs to take a leaf out of the Boolean logic book….then….
0 Replies
 
Jasper10
 
  -1  
Sun 19 Dec, 2021 02:48 am
@bulmabriefs144,
As for the possibility of a God not caring about Dogma……..I’m not so sure on that one because if good and bad are different (0,0…1,1) and not the same (0,1…1,0) ,as a possibility, then what is that difference?
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Sun 19 Dec, 2021 06:25 am
@Jasper10,
That's morality, which again refers back to your Boolean options.

Dogma id a speicific belief set, which is taken as fact.

For example, dogma of the Muslim faith is that Muhammad is taken as a real person (despite the historical sound to it, the historicity of Muhammad has been questioned) and that this year or that year, he went to this place or that place. Likewise, Christian dogma would typically include the virgin birth or the prediction that Jesus will come again. Dogma is usually irrelevant to the study of morality, since it is simple statements taken on faith.
 

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