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Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?

 
 
neologist
 
  2  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 01:05 pm
@edgarblythe,
I gave up self flagellation when, as a teenager, my mom caught me

Oh, wait. flagellation. Embarrassed

WOW! That got a thumb down in a hurry. Let me have another bite of this sammich and we'll see what happens then.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:02 pm
@neologist,
I won't ask what's in your sandwich. I only hope you washed your hands.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:03 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Nope. Because there is no such thing as "the ultimate truth"


True.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:06 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Olivier5 wrote:
Nope. Because there is no such thing as "the ultimate truth"


True.


But if it is "true"...wouldn't that make it the ultimate truth?

The notion "there is no ultimate truth" is unsustainable on its merits. If it is true...then it is false.

Or...it is false.
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:42 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Do you know with absolute certainty that YOU, RL, are not GOD?


I am God Frank.

Quote:
there is at least the possibility that I am all that exists.


No frank I created other people to stir you up so that you could be an emotional being.

reasoning logic
 
  2  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:45 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:


You are just someone who wants to prate...and who, it seems, wouldn't recognize wisdom if it were an anvil and fell on your toe.


There is no such thing as wisdom Frank, all you have are the thoughts that I have given you which make you think you are wiser than others at times.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:50 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
Do you know with absolute certainty that YOU, RL, are not GOD?


I am God Frank.

Quote:
there is at least the possibility that I am all that exists.


No frank I created other people to stir you up so that you could be an emotional being.




I guess you are not going to be serious...unless the discussion includes the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

You ought to be wondering why that is.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:51 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:


You are just someone who wants to prate...and who, it seems, wouldn't recognize wisdom if it were an anvil and fell on your toe.


There is no such thing as wisdom Frank, all you have are the thoughts that I have given you which make you think you are wiser than others at times.


My remark was not directed to you, RL.

And you seem unwilling to discuss anything with any degree of seriousness...unless it includes fairies, the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus.

Why is that?
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:55 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
you seem unwilling to discuss anything with any degree of seriousness...unless it includes fairies, the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus.

Why is that?


We Are talking about reality and the fact that I am God Frank, not the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus until I gave you that thought to bring up. By the way this is a serious conversation.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 03:39 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
you seem unwilling to discuss anything with any degree of seriousness...unless it includes fairies, the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus.

Why is that?


We Are talking about reality and the fact that I am God Frank...


We are not talking in seriousness about "the fact" that you are God, RL...unless you can tell me how you know you are God...and not deluding yourself.

We can have a serious discussion about the fact that you might be God (or that I might be God...or that we both may be God)...but since that does not include fairies, the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus...I suspect that will not happen.


Quote:
...not the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus until I gave you that thought to bring up. By the way this is a serious conversation.


This is far from a serious conversation, RL. You will not allow it to be.

Any ideas about why that is?
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 03:49 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
We can have a serious discussion about the fact that you might be God (or that I might be God...or that we both may be God)...but since that does not include fairies, the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus...I suspect that will not happen.


Go ahead frank ask God "me' any questions you would like and I will give you my answer. You do have questions that you would like to ask God don't you?
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 03:51 pm
@reasoning logic,
you should end all communications with
"SO HELP ME, ME..."
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 04:15 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
We can have a serious discussion about the fact that you might be God (or that I might be God...or that we both may be God)...but since that does not include fairies, the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus...I suspect that will not happen.


Go ahead frank ask God "me' any questions you would like and I will give you my answer. You do have questions that you would like to ask God don't you?


Okay...so the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus are absolutely necessary for you to have a discussion.

Too bad that.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 05:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
But if it is "true"...wouldn't that make it the ultimate truth?

I suppose it depends on what you call "the ultimate truth".

"I usually like Camembert" is true, but it's not the "ultimate truth" about all cheeses and all men. It's just a small piece of truth, not the whole and ultimate picture.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 05:19 pm
@Olivier5,
Camembert electrique?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 05:34 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
But if it is "true"...wouldn't that make it the ultimate truth?

I suppose it depends on what you call "the ultimate truth".

"I usually like Camembert" is true, but it's not the "ultimate truth" about all cheeses and all men. It's just a small piece of truth, not the whole and ultimate picture.


If the "truth" about the REALITY of existence is that there is an Ultimate Truth (whatever it happens to be)...then that truth is the Ultimate Truth.

If one asserts that there is no Ultimate Truth...then that would be the Ultimate Truth. But of course, the contradiction means that it would not be the Ultimate Truth.

The assertion "there is no Ultimate Truth" is unsustainable...a logical inconsistency...a definitional impossibility.

But I suspect that is not something you will concede.

So stick with your notion that there is no Ultimate Truth...and just ignore the fact that if correct, that would make it the Ultimate Truth and make it incorrect.
0 Replies
 
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 10:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
You are just someone who wants to prate...and who, it seems, wouldn't recognize wisdom if it were an anvil and fell on your toe.


But I know things.

You do not since you are of the opinion that one can never know anything.

I'm surprised that in all of that shiny bald head of yours there is not one ounce of wisdom.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Mon 10 Mar, 2014 11:46 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Nope. Because there is no such thing as "the ultimate truth"... or if it exists, it's not accessible to us. Nihilism is just a belief, and a useless one to boot.

to say there is no such thing as 'ultimate truth' is essentially the same as me saying 'knowledge is impossible'. it brings up the same paradoxes, that you can never say 'this statement is not true'.

your say that there is no ultimate truth, OR IF THERE IS...its inaccessible. this just shows you are just living in confusion and refusing to investigate things enough. ie, you have tried investigating (through all this discussion), but you are still left confused, so you GIVE UP and conclude that ultimate truth can never be known by humans, or it doesn't exist.

this is fine, and it is the same as what frank and most of you other fools are doing here, but it is only a temporary, primitive aspect of human intelligence. it is like starting a race, seeing you are going to lose, and then stopping. but ironically, finishing the race is all that is required, not 'winning' it which is impossible.

again, i never call my philosophy nihilism, i call it non duality, i just don't cower when people label it the same as nihilism. it is also the same as pantheism, atheism, theism, and probably every other ism that exists. ie, it incorporates them all, while going one step further.

basically, what you all don't like is that someone can talk confidently about non-duality, because that apparently goes against it, because all talk contains ideas, opinions, beliefs. i agree with this, but it does not change anything.

think about the ultimate dumbfuck frank's most common catchphrase: 'i don't do beliefs'.

really think about that. only a true a dumbfuck can say that without seeing the necessary flaw: that itself is a belief. if you honestly think you never believe anything, it is because you BELIEVE you are trying your best to stop believing everything. but why would you possibly do that? because you BELIEVE in certain reasons that 'believing is bad or useless'.

the very idea that an individual can 'not do believing' is pure stupidity. eg. as soon as i say 'knowledge is impossible', 'nothing exists ultimately' or anything else, all you fools suddenly jump up and say 'OMG CM IS SO STUPID'...why?...because you BELIEVE i am wrong, and you are right.

the only way to go beyond beliefs is to go beyond individuality, again, only possible of its own accord, when the individual has actually had enough of existing in such a primitive/confused way.


Olivier5
 
  1  
Tue 11 Mar, 2014 01:33 am
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
to say there is no such thing as 'ultimate truth' is essentially the same as me saying 'knowledge is impossible'. it brings up the same paradoxes, that you can never say 'this statement is not true'.

I agree it is close, but not synonymous. I make a hierarchy between facts and theories; and between theories, I make a difference between local theories and general, all-encompassing ones. The higher one goes towards generality, the more one must assume all sorts of unproven things. General theories of everything (even of everything as nothing, such as nihilism) assume much much more than simpler, more local theories. Hence it is perfectly coherent logically to say: we can't access the ultimate truth. That in itself is not an ultimate truth, in the sense of "a true theory of everything".
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Tue 11 Mar, 2014 02:44 am
Regarding this threads title- Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?, the answer is undoubtedly "Yes"!

Atheists say flat out "There's no god" even though they haven't a shred of proof to support that statement.
Agnostics on the other hand say "We don't know if there's a god", and therefore they hold the logical high ground..Smile

 

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