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what is thought?

 
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 02:03 pm
@north,
The meditator often comes to see something fundamental about his relationship to his experiences: they do not happen to him; they are him. Now tell me, that makes no sense to you, right? That's because the "knowledge" derived from meditation (intense choiceless awareness) is ineffable or beyond the power of language and rational thought.
Your question is rational, but beside the point.
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 02:11 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

The meditator often comes to see something fundamental about his relationship to his experiences: they do not happen to him; they are him. Now tell me, that makes no sense to you, right? That's because the "knowledge" derived from meditation (intense choiceless awareness) is ineffable or beyond the power of language and rational thought.
Your question is rational, but beside the point.


so then how do we know that the meditator understands reality better than anyone else who doesn't , meditate ?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 02:54 pm
@north,
north wrote:

igm wrote:

north wrote:

until this meditator at least tries to communicate to me what greater understanding of reality he has , compared to what I know , we will never know

You may understand something that you could not communicate to others if you meditated. You would not then be able to communicate that to others. For example: if you were blind from birth and you asked me what the colour red was like, how could I explain that to you? If you were later to be able to see for the first time you would know what the colour red was and you wouldn't have to ask me. If another blind person asked you, then you would be unable to tell that blind person what the colour red was like.


but does the meditator know though that I couldn't understand , I have all my senses , imagination and the ability to dwell upon what is conveyed

all I ask is to give me the chance to understand , and stop being so esoteric

I can't for the reasons given above in my previous posts. Just learn how to meditate and see for yourself or don't and see reality as you do now. Some don't get anything from meditation some do but if you don't try you won't know. There are no short cuts. Again I've said all I can. Thanks for the discussion. Smile
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 03:14 pm
@north,
Igm's advice is all that can be said. But let me make this elaboration: Meditators do not know the world better than do non-meditators. Zen buddhists do not know what chemists, physicists, biologists, anthropologists, etc. know. But they do realize their relationship to the world--or the world as immediately experienced--better than do people who only know about themselves and their experience through a screen of ideas and models.
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 03:31 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Igm's advice is all that can be said. But let me make this elaboration: Meditators do not know the world better than do non-meditators. Zen buddhists do not know what chemists, physicists, biologists, anthropologists, etc. know. But they do realize their relationship to the world--or the world as immediately experienced--better than do people who only know about themselves and their experience through a screen of ideas and models.


but as I keep asking , how do we know meditators know this relationship better than any of the sciences
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2011 07:17 am
@JLNobody,
...maybe you only mean to a given rather then personally experienced screen of ideas and models even if only as open as they can be...since there is no other way to experience the world if not through packets of information all the way onto a pre thought level...
...we are temporal creatures, and thus we depend on a chain order of information to make sense of anything, even something so simple as physical pain for instance...
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2011 03:18 pm
@north,
Valid question. They know it better because of their particular discipline. Meditation in this sense is to mystical realization, to put it coarsely, what vivisection is to physiology. Different means for different ends. The sciences--and virtually all linguistically-bound intellectual disciplines--tell us ABOUT the world through the medium of symbols, categories and models, sort of the way theology tells us about God and His will. Mystical training introduces us to God (or our immediate Reality) face-to-face.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2011 03:18 pm
@north,
Valid question. They know it better because of their particular discipline. Meditation in this sense is to mystical realization, to put it coarsely, what vivisection is to physiology. Different means for different ends. The sciences--and virtually all linguistically-bound intellectual disciplines--tell us ABOUT the world through the medium of symbols, categories and models, sort of the way theology tells us about God and His will. Mystical training introduces us to God (or our immediate Reality) face-to-face.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2011 03:49 pm
@north,
north wrote:

but as I keep asking , how do we know meditators know this relationship better than any of the sciences

If you want to know what a quantum physicist knows you have to become one. If you want to know how a meditator experiences reality you have to become a meditator.

Now,... you can be taught by others how, when, where, why to meditate but you can’t ask what experience of reality that meditator has because it’s unique to that person. Just as your meditation experience will be unique to you. But living life and being a meditator aren’t mutually exclusive they actually complement each other especially if you find (as some but not all do) when you understand why to meditate and how it can help not just yourself but others live happier lives... and I guess we all want that don’t we?

But you need your own unique direct experience of meditation to give you your own direct insight into the reality as experienced by a meditator. Again as I’ve said before you also can ignore the need to meditate…most do.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2011 08:32 pm
@igm,
Bingo: "...you can't ask what experience of reality [a] meditator has because it's unique to [him]." It is all deeply subjective, but not in the sense that a crazy person is uniquely subjective; there is a whole class of people (successful meditators) who will share your understanding--to some extent.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2011 05:20 am
Every time I come on a2k and see the headline question of this thread among all the others, an answer pops into my head, so I figured I'll just post it.

Thought is what happens when you stop talking. Wink

And a step further, meditation is what happens when you stop trying to think. But that's almost as hard as trying not to breathe, not because thinking is vital to living, like breath, but because consciously guiding our thoughts comes as naturally to us as drawing breath. I don't think it is unusual for people trying to meditate to fall asleep, since what you need to do when you want to meditate is so similar to what you need to do when you want to sleep.
existential potential
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2011 06:38 am
@Pemerson,
Pemerson: "...whatever your thinking about, your mind will go ahead of you and build that in your world"

Yes. Thought can be described as an "extension of perception" (Bohm), inasmuch as our perceptions of the world are partly constituted by thought, and the element of thought in our perceptions may not be necessary to any particular experience. Thought can extend our perceptions of the world incorrectly, which can in turn generate feelings that we perceive to be a consequence of the world, when in actuality such feelings are the result of thought that goes into our perception of the world.

For example, if someone tells you that they are going to pick you up at X time, but they do not show up, you may have the thought that they have ditched you. This thought, if it goes into your perception, can generate feelings of anger toward this person, but this may be misplaced, because later you may find out that they were caught in traffic.

Thought, perception, feeling and behaviour all exist in a kind of interdependency, with each informing the others.

0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2011 07:29 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Every time I come on a2k and see the headline question of this thread among all the others, an answer pops into my head, so I figured I'll just post it.

Thought is what happens when you stop talking. Wink

And a step further, meditation is what happens when you stop trying to think.

No.. thoughts are left to dissolve by themselves. Thoughts arise by themselves and dissolve by themselves. Trying to stop thinking is not meditation as I understand it and would fail as you have explained in your previous post.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2011 10:21 am
@igm,
Perhaps I expressed myself poorly. What I mean to say is that it is possible to find a meditative experience if you stop trying to guide your thoughts, and then stop paying attention to them. Let them happen, but don't let them grab you and take you with them, so to speak. But I think this is a very subjective description.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2011 10:33 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

What I mean to say is that it is possible to find a meditative experience if you stop trying to guide your thoughts, and then stop paying attention to them. Let them happen, but don't let them grab you and take you with them, so to speak. But I think this is a very subjective description.

Yes, thoughts arise and we can get caught up in them or not but we can't control their arising without problems. If suppressed then that usually leads to mental problems...better not to meditate (I'd say) than try to control the arising of thoughts! Just by being aware of them and not getting caught up in them they slow and longer gaps naturally arise. Knowledge doesn’t reside in the gaps but some say wisdom does.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2011 11:50 am
@igm,

north wrote:

but as I keep asking , how do we know meditators know this relationship better than any of the sciences


Quote:
If you want to know what a quantum physicist knows you have to become one. If you want to know how a meditator experiences reality you have to become a meditator.


yet I can ask this quantum physicist what he / she knows

I can read books , ask questions and so on

so I would ask the meditator questions at the very least

north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2011 11:50 am
@north,
north wrote:


north wrote:

but as I keep asking , how do we know meditators know this relationship better than any of the sciences


Quote:
If you want to know what a quantum physicist knows you have to become one. If you want to know how a meditator experiences reality you have to become a meditator.


yet I can ask this quantum physicist what he / she knows

I can read books , ask questions and so on

so I would ask the meditator questions at the very least


igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2011 12:32 pm
@north,
north wrote:

north wrote:


north wrote:

but as I keep asking , how do we know meditators know this relationship better than any of the sciences


Quote:
If you want to know what a quantum physicist knows you have to become one. If you want to know how a meditator experiences reality you have to become a meditator.


yet I can ask this quantum physicist what he / she knows

I can read books , ask questions and so on

so I would ask the meditator questions at the very least


Such as....?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2011 01:40 pm
@igm,
...I think he does not understand the limited scope of descriptions, questions and answers, without the experience in the first person as a background for knowledge...
...knowledge is always personnel !
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2011 02:11 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...I think he does not understand the limited scope of descriptions, questions and answers, without the experience in the first person as a background for knowledge...
...knowledge is always personnel !


true but if you can't communicate what you found then you don't understand what you have found

there are meditators that have found before quantum , the quantum reality

so meditators CAN communicate what they have found
 

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