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what is thought?

 
 
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 11:03 am
simple question: what is thought?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 3,620 • Replies: 64
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Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 11:09 am
@hamilton,
The dull answer would be an informative mediation in between observers and reality...but bottom line is just process...a form upon/about a form...or a pattern about/on a pattern... a reaction, the recognition of a relation....
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Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2011 09:29 pm
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2011 09:48 pm
Hmmm, let me give that some thought.

One thing: it is NOT just what is happening in the brain. That too, but not just that. Consciousness, awareness, perspective, etc. are the univserse in process, not just marks on a graph or lights in a skull.
Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2011 09:50 pm
@JLNobody,
Did you saw the video in fast forward mode ? that was quick ! Wink
JLNobody
 
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Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2011 10:38 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
My computer can't download youtubes or videos.
Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2011 10:41 pm
@JLNobody,
...install flash player update...want a link ? Rolling Eyes
existential potential
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 01:15 am
@JLNobody,
"the universe in process"-What does this mean? Thought does ultimately take place in my brain right?

Doesn't thought process phenomena? We each have our experience of the world as an ever shifting experience of phenomena, and thought is the process whereby we categorise that experience, making it intelligible. Thought is the conscious process of categorising and making comprehensible our experience of the world.
Cyracuz
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 04:38 am
Another question I find interesting is this: How do we know that thoughts originate in us? Is the mind something that produces thoughts or something that detects them in a way similar to our noses detecting smells?

And what is the difference between a smell and the mental experience of smelling it?
JLNobody
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 08:43 am
@existential potential,
EP, I must confess: I hate to explain something I said while free associating , here's something. The Hindu notion of "Atman" is the universe's--or to objectify the totality with an anthropomorphic metaphor, Brahman's--mechanism for Self awareness. Brahman is the general and all His/Her Atman's make up the network of particulars.
At the phenomenal level of our experience--yours and mine--there is the illusion of self or mind; but in reality there is "no-mind" (Japanese: "mushin"), or the negation of atman, which is, Anatman.
That's what I referred to with the phrase: "Consciousness, awareness, perspective, etc. are the univserse [Brahman] in process, not just [our methodological research] marks on a graph or lights in a skull."
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 08:58 am
@existential potential,
Back to your point. When you indicate that thought ""processes" phenomena do you mean that it generates (creates) it or do you refer to the symbolic process by which we make sense of, or organize, sensations? For example, in meditation one "sees" experience immeditately as sensation, as prereflective realization or phenomena. Then--indeed almost, but not quite--immediately one imposes a grid of categories on that phen0mena. Grammar, and I suppose the rules of logic and mathematics, are our principal organizing principles to the extent that we use them--mustn't discount the illogicality of unconscious processes.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 09:14 am
@Cyracuz,
Good question. I never think of my mind as a conduit for "mental processes" originating elsewhere, but I do see my experiences--as well as yours--as expressions of a general universal (or extralocal) process.

Regarding smell, like colours and sounds it does not occur without the workings of our olfactory lobes, but the thoughts of brain and smell are no more real than the experience themselves. In fact I see them as both sensation and organizing principles.
Nietzsche said--if I remember correctly--that without grammar we would not believe in God. We might add that without grammar we would not differentiate between subject (me) and object (the world of things I relate to). I would continue to live in and exploit the world, as other non-thinking animals do, but I could not organize them into beliefs (as I'm doing now).
JLNobody
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 09:20 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Yes, let's give it a try. Thanks.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 09:20 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Yes, let's give it a try. Thanks.
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Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 10:16 am
@JLNobody,
So after all we are agreeing that whatever is the case, the phenomena which is the "world" and by which the "I" emerges is valid nonetheless...that was my point from the beginning.

From the "I" to the "world", or from the "world" to the "I" the phenomena stays true !
igm
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 10:41 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

So after all we are agreeing that whatever is the case, the phenomena which is the "world" and by which the "I" emerges is valid nonetheless...that was my point from the beginning.

From the "I" to the "world", or from the "world" to the "I" the phenomena stays true !

igm here: are you sure you're on the correct thread?
Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 10:49 am
@igm,
...do thoughts require minds more then minds require thoughts ?
...lets loosen to the extreme the meaning of thoughts as thoughts being the "world" and minds being the "I"...can you see the point ?

...thoughts are themselves organization, and as mind organizes, it also is the product of organization, that is, LAW !
igm
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 10:53 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...do thoughts require minds more then minds require thoughts ?
...lets loosen to the extreme the meaning of thoughts as thoughts being the "world" and minds being the "I"...can you see the point ?

...thoughts are themselves organization, and as mind organizes it also is the product of organization, that is, LAW !


Where is the mind apart from its thoughts and other so called mental creations. If they were removed would mind remain?
Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 11:01 am
@igm,
...of course not ! they are an intrinsic phenomena. None has meaning without the other... but lets take it one step further to say that the difference is that the kind of "god" that emerges from this ends up being totally different from the old Christian Creator programmer God that we were used to...there´s only the program who can make programmers in it to make yet more programs...that is replicate itself !
...where you have an intertwined infinite finity...the phenomena itself which is a loop ! (process process process)
igm
 
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Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 11:21 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...there´s only the program who can make programmers in it to make yet more programs...that is replicate itself !
...where you have an intertwined infinite finity...the phenomena itself which is a loop !

If it didn't begin it can't be a program. If it did begin how could it begin? A program is made of parts and those parts are made of parts and so on... and so on....? The whole program depends on its parts but to create it, it wouldn't be a program until it was finished and it would have to begin in a state which was not functioning. The creation (or if its uncreated and eternal) of this program doesn't make sense to me I can't see how reality is a program.

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