Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

Not at all, Izzy. Some of us can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

Nothing new there. Any thread that's on topic after 10 pages is a rare breed.

Alright then, we've seen plenty of walking. Now how's about chewing some gum. Would you like to respond to the posts about John McCain.

I find it shocking that people even engage in these sorts of smoke screens. It isn't whether torture works or not. It's that torture has no place in a country that purports to believe in the rule of law.

Why all the talk around the actual, important, salient issues? Bush and his criminal gang engaged in activities that are illegal and immoral. The discussion should not be, "I'm right and you're wrong"; it should be, it's always wrong and the perpetrators of this should be dragged into a court of law.

I agree with you on that, but isn't it important to establish that not only is torture wrong it's also ineffective? If the supporters of torture can get people thinking it works, they won't want their representatives to stop using it. I think more people have based their opinions on the efficacy of torture on the TV series 24 than on actual evidence. All of which is to the contrary.

Ask Farmerman or Parados.

I thought it was pancake Tuesday.

It truly amazes me what people base their opinions on, Izzy.

There was an article in the Guardian about it, how 24 was being used to support torture much to the embarassment of Kiefer Sutherland

I'm not sure that there's anything anyone can do to get Americans to see the light. All these people know that Reagan/Bush was fully responsible for the rape, torture and murder of 40 to 50 thousand Nicaraguans and they barely acknowledge it, Izzy.

Even when examples of the US's own definition of terrorism, along with copious examples of the US involved in those terrorist activities are placed right in front of their eyes, they deny it or simply turn away or divert attention from it.

They know that every president since at least Eisenhower has committed war crimes/crimes against humanity but it's just stone cold silence or shoot the messenger or might is right.

How could that be when,

“all the columns on one side of a Tower could be cut, as well as the two corners and some of the columns on each adjacent side, and the building would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind.”[5] As well, “Live loads on these columns can be increased more than 2,000% before failure occurs.”[6] ?

How could that be when there was thought to be little likelihood that the core columns suffered much damage at all?

You still haven't answered which ASTM E119 tests.

The ASTM E119 test would assume all fireproofing is on the trusses. We know that isn't the case. Warnings are always given that the E119 tests often don't mimic actual fires. It is merely a standard for testing fire on products to make comparisons.

http://www.structuremag.org/article.aspx?articleID=457

I think this forum is quite unique, most of the people I have interracted with are very intelligent. Those that aren't do stand out, I'm not going to start naming names but I could count them on the fingers of one hand. I've only been on here about 2 weeks really, but I've really enjoyed it.

America is unique as a country. Not only is it currently the most powerful country on Earth, it is a paradox. America is probably the country that other countries know most about. Over here about half the television we watch is American. Conversely, it is the country that knows least about the rest of the world. The Guardian did a survey in New York just before the invasion of Iraq, they took a map of the world and asked passers-by to point to Iraq. This was New York, part of Coastal America that's outward looking, not Nebraska. This is not scientific either. 2% got it right. More people chose CANADA.

I think that sums it up really. There are a lot of nice people who live decent lives, who are very switched on domestically, but don't have a passport and do not know whats going on around the world. Unfortunately their view of the world is based on a fiction. London is the best example of this. Go to the centre of America, ask someone what they think of when you say London, you'll probably get Fog, Jack the Ripper, Merry Old England, Kings and Queens Beefeaters etc. Ask an American that's been to London you'll get New York. In fact London and New York are probably more like each other than they are to any other cities in Europe or America.

Factor in a far right propaganda network called Fox, and a right wing media in general, and you get a bunch of nice, well meaning people who are fairly switched on domestically but view an outside world that is fictional. During the run up to the war in Iraq, (I think you've probably posted about this) American news channels were highly selective about American opinion to invading Iraq. Anti-war feeling was not reported. All American TV channels were guilty of distorting the real feeling about the war in America.

Let me tell you something about the BBC. The BBC was set up by Royal Charter, independent of government. It was required by law to be objective, fair and unbiased. There are safeguards too, an independent body adjudicates complaints against the BBC, usually from the government of the day. 99% of complaints are dismissed. When the INDEPENDENT body finds AGAINST the BBC it's headline news.

The BBC is fair and unbiased. They don't need to say it. It's a fact. That's why all these nice decent people don't believe things about Nicaragua and all the other places. They believe a fictional account of the world. This wouldn't usually be important, but it is because America is the most powerful country in the world.

I trust, by this, that you are not dredging up some unflattering stereotype of middle-Americans.


Yep ... that's what you're doing. I'm originally from Kansas ... (that's the center of America, btw) ... and I've been to London. Does that fit your stereotype?

You go to London and you ask someone what they think of when you say Kansas (or Nebraska), you'll probably get cows, farmers, sheep, hayseeds & bumpkins, Dorothy and Toto.

How do you know that isn't the case?

Other than the fact that London is in England, Jack the Ripper was part of it's history and you can find King and Queens and Beefeaters there, I guess they are maybe kind of the same. I don't know that I would ever confuse Times Square with Picadilly, however.

Because that is how the test is conducted.

Is it always tested in that manner? What about tests done to see what the fire rating would be with no insulation?

So in other words you claimed it passed the ASTM E119 test but you have no clue as to what test was done or how it was done or what rating it was given. You just claimed it passed out of complete ignorance.

I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to insult you. If you look at my post I used the word decent to describe a lot of the people in the Central States of America. I chose Nebraska because it's the most central state in America. It is true that americans in the coastal parts of America tend to be more outward looking than those in the centre. Passport ownership in Europe as opposed to America is very different. Almost everyone in Europe has a passport, I read that about 40% of Americans do not have passports.

You are lovely people. I really do mean that, most Americans I have met are really nice. You are the most powerful country in the world. Things are being done around the world in your name. You need to get up to speed. I'm not talking about anyone in this forum, as far as I'm concerned the vast majority of you are up to speed. Ask yourselves this question,' Is this forum typical of America?'